Alternate History Thread V
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
Espoir
Warlord
This is great; I only wish you talked about military aviation a bit more.
I am very interested in seeing how a ruleset could be adapted for use in this time period.
I am very interested in seeing how a ruleset could be adapted for use in this time period.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
For spending, I'd dump the EP in favor of something more quantitative, like $1,000,000 as the base economic unit. Abbreviating costs for things to spend on as XM$, basically. Not *much* different from the EP, except that it's much more divisible and doesn't have a stupid name.
A manpower pool is essential, but rather than forcing players to deal with raw numbers, I suggest a qualitative slider, along the lines of Exhausted - Highly Depleted - Depleted - Acceptable - Strong - Very Strong - East Asia. It's obvious what kind of policies can effect this, the biggest being getting young men shot in the vital organs. You could implement raw numbers if you want, but it's definitely more work to keep track of, because are you *really* counting how much of the male population comes of age in each country in each quarter of a year? Of course not; you have a general idea and you extrapolate from there. Which argues for qualitative stats.
In terms of economy, I propose (Base/Industry/Trade) - (Debt Service/Upkeep), with income rounded to the nearest 1M$. This allows players to do concrete things, like "Lower Protectionist Barriers In This Fashion," which would (in a textbook scenario) lower Industry and raise Trade income, though how much in each direction would depend on the player's implementation. Base would be the income tax base, of course. Obviously keep a separate Treasury/Debt stat, but handle deficit spending (in terms of determining how much is acceptable) on an ad hoc basis, aka the PerfNES model.
Dachs already brought up the 'sophistication of industry' problem on #nes, which is...problematic. I think you can solve it though, by simply saying what each country can produce and where, modifiable with long-term reform and/or throwing a lot of money at the problem. Possibly an 'economy description' along the lines of the old army descriptions? In both AFSNES and DaNES II, the military descriptions changed incrementally over time, and I propose a similar approach for an economy description.
I also propose a qualitative stat which summarizes the current direction of the economy, providing the player with a general guide for whether his income (at least Base and Industrial) is going to increase or not. If you prefer to make it quantitative you could put the last quarter's percentage change in GDP, but again that's much more work for the mod in determining what percentile of GDP change translates into 10M$ increased/decreased income, since it would be situational for each economy. The one really tricky part with economy seems to be how mobilization would work, and how it would integrate with spending.
Keep factions. Integrate current factional goals INTO the stats. DaNES II was great with the factional goals, but presumably those change with time, and can do so quite rapidly depending on the political situation.
I propose higher-resolution maps for theater combat along with the generalized placement (by the mod) of corps to army-sized units and major fleets. It's just necessary, and saves the mod a lot of obligatory 'WHERE THE **** ARE MY TROOPS' questioning post-update.
Dachs might and probably will disagree with me, but I think accessibility for the proletarian player is key. And of course this all belongs in the NES development thread rather than here, but activity is activity, eh?
A manpower pool is essential, but rather than forcing players to deal with raw numbers, I suggest a qualitative slider, along the lines of Exhausted - Highly Depleted - Depleted - Acceptable - Strong - Very Strong - East Asia. It's obvious what kind of policies can effect this, the biggest being getting young men shot in the vital organs. You could implement raw numbers if you want, but it's definitely more work to keep track of, because are you *really* counting how much of the male population comes of age in each country in each quarter of a year? Of course not; you have a general idea and you extrapolate from there. Which argues for qualitative stats.
In terms of economy, I propose (Base/Industry/Trade) - (Debt Service/Upkeep), with income rounded to the nearest 1M$. This allows players to do concrete things, like "Lower Protectionist Barriers In This Fashion," which would (in a textbook scenario) lower Industry and raise Trade income, though how much in each direction would depend on the player's implementation. Base would be the income tax base, of course. Obviously keep a separate Treasury/Debt stat, but handle deficit spending (in terms of determining how much is acceptable) on an ad hoc basis, aka the PerfNES model.
Dachs already brought up the 'sophistication of industry' problem on #nes, which is...problematic. I think you can solve it though, by simply saying what each country can produce and where, modifiable with long-term reform and/or throwing a lot of money at the problem. Possibly an 'economy description' along the lines of the old army descriptions? In both AFSNES and DaNES II, the military descriptions changed incrementally over time, and I propose a similar approach for an economy description.
I also propose a qualitative stat which summarizes the current direction of the economy, providing the player with a general guide for whether his income (at least Base and Industrial) is going to increase or not. If you prefer to make it quantitative you could put the last quarter's percentage change in GDP, but again that's much more work for the mod in determining what percentile of GDP change translates into 10M$ increased/decreased income, since it would be situational for each economy. The one really tricky part with economy seems to be how mobilization would work, and how it would integrate with spending.
Keep factions. Integrate current factional goals INTO the stats. DaNES II was great with the factional goals, but presumably those change with time, and can do so quite rapidly depending on the political situation.
I propose higher-resolution maps for theater combat along with the generalized placement (by the mod) of corps to army-sized units and major fleets. It's just necessary, and saves the mod a lot of obligatory 'WHERE THE **** ARE MY TROOPS' questioning post-update.
Dachs might and probably will disagree with me, but I think accessibility for the proletarian player is key. And of course this all belongs in the NES development thread rather than here, but activity is activity, eh?
I probably would have if I weren't incredibly suspicious of the amount of interest military aviation has generated. It wasn't actually a war-winning instrument (albeit not an unimportant one, a distinction which most people are incapable of making), and one might argue it never has been, although that's neither here nor there.
But an in-universe reason for that is, besides Trenchard and Portal, most of the great bomber advocates aren't around. Billy Mitchell didn't have the example of the Great War to work off of, and Giulio Douhet is notably dead.
Me, too! Maybe I'll come up with something in between opium dreams next week. Thlayli discussion moved to the rules thread, because activity might be activity, but I'd rather he post some of his suspiciously dormant TL stuff over rules discussion. :3Espoir said:
kkmo
世界
- Joined
- May 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,245
To Dachs: Your writings are extremely intriguing. 
I am interested to know more about the current relationship between Japan and China. Not so much on a formal political level, but moreso on an observational level. Ikki Kita was a member of Jiaoren's "Tongmenghui" and he assisted in the overthrow of Qing China (in the historical timeline). The point is, this contributed a lot to the development of his ideology, even though he had already written numerous books and articles espousing his ideas (though the major politically-charged ultranationalism book Nihon Kaizō Hōan Taikō wouldn't be released until 1920 [and perhaps banned in your timeline?]). I think the influence of the revolution in China on Ikki Kita is often downplayed. By the time he returned to Japan, it had effected him so much in that he thought it was inadequate for Japan's standards (he thought it wouldn't be enough, and while drawn to it romantically at first, was very disappointed by its strategies). One could say it almost pushed him to become more radical, but this is highly disputed. Many Japanese historians do not like to talk about Ikki Kita being influenced by anything happening in China.
You could simply argue he would've become what he became no matter what, which is fine. I was just curious to know your thoughts and hear some of the intricacies of the relationship between Japan and China (and there must be many, because the Qing are still around). I only bring this up because you mentioned him in your post. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to seeing the NES.
I am interested to know more about the current relationship between Japan and China. Not so much on a formal political level, but moreso on an observational level. Ikki Kita was a member of Jiaoren's "Tongmenghui" and he assisted in the overthrow of Qing China (in the historical timeline). The point is, this contributed a lot to the development of his ideology, even though he had already written numerous books and articles espousing his ideas (though the major politically-charged ultranationalism book Nihon Kaizō Hōan Taikō wouldn't be released until 1920 [and perhaps banned in your timeline?]). I think the influence of the revolution in China on Ikki Kita is often downplayed. By the time he returned to Japan, it had effected him so much in that he thought it was inadequate for Japan's standards (he thought it wouldn't be enough, and while drawn to it romantically at first, was very disappointed by its strategies). One could say it almost pushed him to become more radical, but this is highly disputed. Many Japanese historians do not like to talk about Ikki Kita being influenced by anything happening in China.
You could simply argue he would've become what he became no matter what, which is fine. I was just curious to know your thoughts and hear some of the intricacies of the relationship between Japan and China (and there must be many, because the Qing are still around). I only bring this up because you mentioned him in your post. Keep up the great work, and I look forward to seeing the NES.
I think that the success of Jiang's dictatorship in 1918 probably would've had more or less the same impact on Ikki Kita being disillusioned with the Chinese national revolution as the Republic's OTL abortion in the 1910s did. I don't think he would've become what he was like no matter what (otherwise I'd have had no excuse for Jiang himself, Song Qingling, Oswald Mosley, Maxime Weygand, or Mikhail II), and I think that'd have been something of a cop-out anyway.
Admittedly, Japan is one of the weaker sections of the TL. My experience with Japanese history in the period is with monographs on restricted subjects; I can do a pretty decent job on civil-military relations, but, for instance, the political milieu and culture are pretty beyond the pale. (The whole TL is pretty light on culture, but even in the not-yet-released footnoted version, Japan is pretty barren of it.) You can kind of tell by the fact that I shifted in emphasis from the Black Dragon Society as catch-all nationalist organization to a broader spectrum of such organizations from the 1919-31 segment to the overview, among other things.
Admittedly, Japan is one of the weaker sections of the TL. My experience with Japanese history in the period is with monographs on restricted subjects; I can do a pretty decent job on civil-military relations, but, for instance, the political milieu and culture are pretty beyond the pale. (The whole TL is pretty light on culture, but even in the not-yet-released footnoted version, Japan is pretty barren of it.) You can kind of tell by the fact that I shifted in emphasis from the Black Dragon Society as catch-all nationalist organization to a broader spectrum of such organizations from the 1919-31 segment to the overview, among other things.
kkmo
世界
- Joined
- May 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,245
I'm glad you see it that way (that it would be a cop-out 
).
Also, don't worry so much about the cultural nuances. The information you do give is a good backdrop. The knowledgeable and caring player will take time to analyze the various alternate situations in Asia, filter them through the appropriate socio-cultural lense, and make use of them. I appreciate the amount of detail you have posted thus far.
).Also, don't worry so much about the cultural nuances. The information you do give is a good backdrop. The knowledgeable and caring player will take time to analyze the various alternate situations in Asia, filter them through the appropriate socio-cultural lense, and make use of them. I appreciate the amount of detail you have posted thus far.
Whoops, technical difficulties. Lemme try this again.
Okay, tried again. Disclaimer: maybe a third of the footnotes were written under the influence.
Okay, tried again. Disclaimer: maybe a third of the footnotes were written under the influence.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Just started reading The Dark Valley as per your recommendation, Dachs. And a history of international fascism for more detailed reading.
And I finally picked up some Treadgold, as well, though that's for *my* project, not yours.
And I finally picked up some Treadgold, as well, though that's for *my* project, not yours.
sophie
Break My Heart
So I've been working up the courage to do an AH for awhile now and I think it's high time I get my feet wet. So I was thinking of doing a Henri II of France doesn't die in a jousting accident leading to either no Wars of Religion or a weaker Wars of Religion. Is that at all sensible? And is it worth pursuing?
Symphony D.
Deity
Say hello to the DaNES III map. Textured is likely to be the in-use version, but I've included a flat one in case someone has a slow connection.
Heh. I like what you did with St. Martin's label. Very awesome. APPROV'D.Say hello to the DaNES III map. Textured is likely to be the in-use version, but I've included a flat one in case someone has a slow connection.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
What was the criterion for city placement? Population based, I'm assuming.
100k+ population in or around the 1930s, with reasonable subtractions based on obvious divergences (like, for instance, Gdingen/Gdynia doesn't show up because it was a fishing village until the Poles put colossal amounts of money into building it up as a port in the 1920s) or on close overlapping proximity to other, larger cities.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Even though they don't strictly meet the criteria, I feel like Vladivostok (and maybe Anchorage) are strategic enough to merit placement.
Symphony D.
Deity
Then you may as well start adding Kinshasa, Zanzibar, Mogadishu, Mecca, Medina, Aden, Abu-Dhabi, Bandar-Abbas, Edmonton, Reykjavik...
Vladivostok doesn't matter because of Port Arthur, Anchorage has never mattered (and has maybe 2,300 or so people).
Vladivostok doesn't matter because of Port Arthur, Anchorage has never mattered (and has maybe 2,300 or so people).
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
You could only use 2011 river data?
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