Alternate History Thread V

Okay. I had a mod-enforced vacation, and then I had a real vacation, so I wasn't able to respond to any of this. Now I am. Woop.
@Dachs: Without the blockade, the idea is that American trade with Germany is not hindered in the North Sea, and the British do not hinder American shipping through the English Channel going into the North Sea because they do not seek to aggravate the United States, which could eventually force the USA to join on the other side. From the German side, the lack of the blockade means that Germany is relevantly stronger. I'm still saying that Germany takes Paris in 1916 or sooner. France eventually undergoing a communist revolution happens because France has a nationalist revanchist government, and the second defeat at the hands of Germany empowers the French left. Perhaps the setbacks in the North Sea lead to Clemenceau gaining power sooner. Austria-Hungary collapsing and Italy going fascist are not really necessary, but likely to have happened in my opinion. In this timeline, Italy either remains neutral or still joins the Entente.

Regarding the Austro-Prussia war, I'll take that into consideration. Napoleon was such a wild card that really it's nearly impossible to predict what he would do.
The problem is that the British correctly calculated that no blockade would anger the Americans enough to cause a war, so there would be no reason to lift a blockade out of respect for American sensibilities. The only reason for the British to lift the blockade would be if the Grand Fleet suffered such losses that they could not keep their cruiser squadrons up north indefinitely.

Even if the British were to lift the blockade in that sense, they would probably continue patrols there. What with the other local hazards, it's hard to imagine Germany getting much of a volume of trade with the outside world, and that's also assuming the Germans had anything to buy with. Remember, the British ran out of American money in late 1916, and London was the world's financial capital at the time. Germany can hardly be expected to seriously be able to purchase many American goods.

In my timeline - which people really ought to read :( - the blockade's end did not permit Germany to magically increase the amount of matériel available from American sources; its chief utility was in permitting the Germans to better smuggle heavy arms to Ulster anti-Home Rule forces (a relevant thing, since ITTL Asquith's Home Rule compromise was pro-Irish instead of pro-Ulster).

Also, I don't believe that Germany has the ability to crack the Allied lines unless one of two things happens, neither of which has much to do with the blockade. Firstly, Falkenhayn's Verdun plan could be radically revised and cleared up, with the Germans committing a proper attacking force initially in order to successfully seize the relevant ground necessary for his Gorlicesque grinding tactics. This was plausible, but would require significant amounts of luck for the plan to both be outlined correctly and then implemented correctly.

Alternatively, the Germans could play things like they did initially: let the offensives of 1917 bleed out the Anglo-French armies and badly demoralize them, force a separate peace with Russia in the East, and then mount a massive offensive in the west to crush the French. For this to work, the Germans would have to refrain from unrestricted submarine warfare. They would benefit from the collapse of the Anglo-American trading arrangements in 1917 and the resulting resource starvation of the Entente armies, along with fairly serious fiscal consequences, but it is unlikely that the Western powers would have collapsed on their own account due to this or that the Germans would be able to exploit the concomitant disorder and weakness on the front with their own troops.

As far as the Austro-Prussian war goes, Napoleon was singularly unwilling to actually fight unless he felt pressed to do so after the events of 1859. In order for him to be that willing to go to war, he would have to suffer a humiliation, not a success. It was a humiliation, over the 1867 Luxemburg crisis, that made Napoleon believe that he had to force the issue of war with the Norddeutscher Bund eventually. (I have written a timeline about Napoleon III being more of a protagonist in Europe in the late 1860s and early 1870s, or rather, more of a threat, but it could use polishing. Worth a look if you're interested, though.)
It wouldn't, but without submarine warfare by the German Empire, the United States would be increasingly set in it's isolationism, unless the British were to attempt to hinder American shipping to Germany in other ways. If the British Empire were to antagonize US shipping (which it won't) then the sentiment in the United States would go more against the British Empire then the German Empire.
I agree that the unrestricted submarine warfare was the tipping point, but the way to stop that isn't to get the Americans trading with Germany.
But they didn't. Why did USA trade with everyone anyway somehow causes Germany to become super powerful and beat everyone? I can understand the British eventually giving up on the war and signing some sort of white peace... but why does that make Germany all powerful with extra colonies? Didn't the British occupy all their colonies early in the war anyway?
These are excellent objections and he should have paid more attention to them.
An intervention would most likely not be successful, what would be important is the Union logistical situation goes belly up whilst the Confederacy is massively improved. Without the ability to buy saltpeter from the global market, or any other of the vast number of foreign goods the Union needed, their ability to continue campaigning is limited.
Not particularly limited. For one thing, the federal government's ability to punch through a blockade to get useful war matériel would be as good or better than the Confederacy's, and the South successfully evaded the Federal blockade for pretty much the entire war. And the Confederacy's problems were, fundamentally, not logistical ones. They lacked a coherent command structure, any capacity for collegiate nation-wide military decisions, and, worst of all, the merest idea of how to win the war. These things do not materially change if they are not gifted independence - and Washington - on a silver platter by the British and French. And the British and French were probably not capable of doing that, as we apparently agree.
As for Austria-Hungary, with them winning the war, why would their empire break up? At the time of the war they were about to enact reforms to hold it together I believe, and logically they would execute these after the war as well, at least delaying it breaking up for a few decades.
I kind of sound like a broken record here, but the timeline I wrote - linked in my sig - really is useful for this sort of thing. The Habsburg Empire's plans for reform had no consensus behind them and probably wouldn't have solved anything anyway. The major suggestions were either federalizing the empire into a corporate association of nation-states (good luck defining the borders or figuring out anybody who actually supported that, along with creating an actual coherent federal policy when two governments blocked enough stuff as it was) or creating a third monarchy, of Slavs, to counterbalance the Magyars and, effectively, outvote them, a project that would've caused civil war with the Hungarians and probably would've ended up with the Slavic monarchy being equally as intractable as the Magyar monarchy was.

Furthermore, the Hungarian Diet had planned for the 1917 Ausgleich negotiations a series of demands that would have effectively broken the association between Austria and Hungary: a fully independent Hungarian army, a fully independent Hungarian foreign ministry, and the release of what little economic planning controls Vienna had left in Transleithania. Had the war not intervened, the Hungarians would've dissolved the state or caused a civil war. ITTL, the war was 'quiet' enough until 1917 for the Diet to sunder the union (aided by the counterproposals of Kaiser Franz Ferdinand I) and force a civil war. The Austrians only reestablished control with the aid of massive German and Russian military assistance, military courts-martial, widespread executions, and, eventually, genocide. By 1931 the state had effectively become an authoritarian nightmare with a ramshackle political consensus, governed by imperial fiat from the Hofburg and resting on the corpses of over two million Hungarian soldiers and civilians.
Exactly. Also, the point of departure in this timeline would be the Trent Affair, which I will alter and will cause the Union to declare war on Britain. The likely result of this will be a Lexington and Concord type naval battle between the Royal Navy and the US Navy where the actual first shot is unknown. Alternatively, I could make the pod the 1860 US Presidential elections, where a different Republican(esque) President is elected and the outbreak of the war remains the same, but this President is much less indecisive and is pressured by Congress to accept an American declaration of war against Britain during the Trent Affair.
The problem with the specific Trent Affair is that the whole thing showed how unwilling the British and Americans were to go to war with each other. The UK had declared war over much less from other countries, but even Palmerston was loathe to consider fighting a war with the numberless American millions in which Canada was sure to be at serious risk. (That fundamental diplomatic calculus was why the British tended strongly towards good relations with the US in the postwar era - the settling of the Alabama claims, the Treaty of Washington, and so on.) And the Lincoln cabinet wasn't so insane to actually want one war, let alone two.

You'd have to basically rewrite America's entire political history of the late 1850s if you were to want an Anglo-American war in addition to the Civil War, because you'd have to eliminate both Lincoln and Seward from the equation - both men were strongly against the idea of fighting the UK - and those were the only serious Republican front-runners. And then you run the risk of making the ACW itself unlikely, and creating approximately a zillion butterflies. I don't think it'll work.
And no, I don't count that as an explanation of why I need to be better informed of the subject. I may not have studied the time period extensively, but I have studied it enough to know more or less what I am talking about. Feel free to prove me wrong, but that would involve countering the arguments Ive brought up. Or feel free to ignore and continue on with your implausible scenarios.
No, your objection is very legitimate, and I am somebody who has studied the time period extensively, for what it's worth. :)
2: The main reason the USA got in WWI was because of the Zimmermann Telegram, by which the German government asked the Mexicans (Pancho Villa, if I am not mistaken) to attack the United States: in exchange for their help in keeping the US busy, Germany would help them gain the territories lost in the middle 19th century. The telegraph was intercepted and decoded by the British, and then sent to the Americans so that they knew what was going on. In the end, Wilson used the Telegram (without saying how exactly he had got it, he certainly was not interested in "telling" the Germans that the British knew their secret codes), the Lusitania sinking and Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare to ask for the DOW on Germany and its allies.

Ahh, I love history.
The Zimmermann note contributed to the atmosphere of war, but it was very much secondary to the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare. The Germans had sent about a zillion incriminating and impractical messages to various powers around the world during Wilhelm II's reign, and none of them did any more than annoy the powers that they were targeted at. By comparison, the resumption of unrestricted U-boat attacks and the sinking of specific American vessels directly fed into the timeline of the declaration of war and were employed in the Congressional debates in March and April 1917.
 
Not particularly limited. For one thing, the federal government's ability to punch through a blockade to get useful war matériel would be as good or better than the Confederacy's, and the South successfully evaded the Federal blockade for pretty much the entire war. And the Confederacy's problems were, fundamentally, not logistical ones. They lacked a coherent command structure, any capacity for collegiate nation-wide military decisions, and, worst of all, the merest idea of how to win the war. These things do not materially change if they are not gifted independence - and Washington - on a silver platter by the British and French. And the British and French were probably not capable of doing that, as we apparently agree.

I do not think the Union would be able to punch through an Anglo-French blockade, at all. But it wouldn't matter since the things the Union wants to buy are either entirely in Anglo-French hands or trivially easy to tie up by them. A blockade at the sales desk is just as formidable as one in the Atlantic Littoral.
 
I do not think the Union would be able to punch through an Anglo-French blockade, at all. But it wouldn't matter since the things the Union wants to buy are either entirely in Anglo-French hands or trivially easy to tie up by them. A blockade at the sales desk is just as formidable as one in the Atlantic Littoral.
Considering how staggeringly ineffective the federal blockade of the Confederacy was, I have serious doubts the British and French could do any better.

Blockade wasn't really for resource denial at that point, anyway. Before the First World War, blockade was a diplomatic weapon, designed to permit a conflict to be isolated from foreign intervention (failure to establish an "effective blockade" was a lever for other interested Great Powers) and a fiscal weapon designed to prevent the enemy from exporting goods to the rest of the world and thus raising his reserves of cash. I imagine the British and French would've been quite keen to sell, or to let the Americans purchase, much of what they required anyway; they had, IIRC, done so in the Crimean War with the Russians, and the federal government certainly did that with the traitor states in the OTL ACW.
 
Not entirely alternate, but the seeds of a possible alternate history if I end up running the NES;

Is this an accurate map of the Roman Empire on the resignation of Sulla? I can't find a map of Rome in 79BC anywhere. Not worried about the provinces or anything like that, just worried about who was where at the time.

Roman Empire is in red, obviously.
 

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Wow dachs said my objections were excellent :D

I am probably one of the least history-knowing NESer this days :p
 
@Khan

Galatia was independent of Pontus, Syria (more of Syria) is Armenian at this point, and Numidia is actually Mauretania. Also Judea is independent.
 
Pontos also did not control Kappadokia or Lykaonia. It did, however, control Paphlagonia, Lesser Armenia, Kolchis, and the Kimmerian Bosporos (your "Taurica" [sic]).

Hayasdan/Armenia did not formally control Syria. Kommagene and Osrhoene are also outside Haikaikan territory. The Hai also control a slice of Pahlavan territory on that map that they should not rule.

The Seleukid Empire should control Syria and Phoenike, with the Hashmonayim monarchy ruling the southern Levant. While the Seleukids have a vassal relationship, sort of, to the Hai, it's not particularly strong.

"Basques" are a misnomer. The Vascones were probably further east than your map has them, and other groups, e.g. the Cantabri, should take their place along the coast.

Rome did not control Gallaecia, and the lines of control in Celtiberia are unfavorable to Rome (the Romans should control more stuff in the south). Rome should have much of the Transalpina, with Emporion and Massilia allied city-states. Rome does not control anything more than a coastal strip in Illyria, and Roman control stops far short of the Danube in "Macedonia". Bithynia is an independent monarchy that controls virtually no European/Thraikian territory (much of that is Thraikian anyway, with Byzantion and Herakleia independent). Rome should control Kilikia de iure, but Lykia and Rhodos (along with Rhodos' Asiatic territories) should be outside formal Roman control. Rome should also not control Krete. Roman control in Africa has been fairly severely overestimated, as Shadowbound said; your "Numidia" should be "Mauretania" and the western half of Rome's African territory should be an independent Numidia. Kyrenaia should probably belong to Rome; although the Romans did not formally constitute it as a province, it still belonged to Rome de iure after Apion died in the mid-90s.

Gaul, Germania Magna, and the like should not be united in any meaningful sense.
 
Regarding the WW1 TL, I recognize that I was being an ass earlier, and for that I apologize. However, it doesn't change the fact that this is all worked out better in my head. :p On that note, since I really don't want to move forward with that timeline right now, I'm done discussing it, instead I'd like to focus on the other idea.

Regarding the ATL 1860's, I recognize that the plausibility is questionable in any case. I made the timeline back in March and never wrote down much of the details to justify the plausibility of what does happen. I just have two points:

1) My original plan was to make the major POD an alternate 1860 US election, with possibly some minor changes to the years leading up to it that don't effect much of anything except the election itself, which then alters the world.

2) Regarding a humiliation for Napoleon, I believe that he tried and failed to get Prussia to recognize Belgium and Luxembourg as French during the Austro-Prussian war, but by the time he did, the war was essentially over. This could be his "humiliation" if altered slightly, and if it is done earlier or Austria isn't so unlucky as to be crushed, then it could provoke French entrance in the war.
 
1) My original plan was to make the major POD an alternate 1860 US election, with possibly some minor changes to the years leading up to it that don't effect much of anything except the election itself, which then alters the world.
Then you will have to elucidate that in considerable detail.
GamezRule said:
2) Regarding a humiliation for Napoleon, I believe that he tried and failed to get Prussia to recognize Belgium and Luxembourg as French during the Austro-Prussian war, but by the time he did, the war was essentially over. This could be his "humiliation" if altered slightly, and if it is done earlier or Austria isn't so unlucky as to be crushed, then it could provoke French entrance in the war.
The Luxemburg crisis took place a year after the 1866 war. The course of events is considerably longer.

Napoleon and Bismarck met at Biarritz in the autumn of 1865 for discussions on France's position in an Austro-Prussian War. Napoleon was more or less convinced that Prussia would lose (and the constellation of German states that aligned around Austria at the outbreak of war had him even more convinced), but he was willing to come around to the understanding that France would remain neutral in such a war. He believed that Bismarck, in return, would agree to French 'compensations' of some kind (possibly on the Rhine, or in Belgium and Luxemburg) in exchange, but these were never hammered out formally - it wasn't Napoleon's style to do so, as he preferred to run things by charisma and what he believed to be consensus. (He'd also been burned in 1859, when he'd forced the Piedmontese to disgorge Savoie and Nice in exchange for assistance against Austria, and did not want a repetition of that PR disaster.)

Come the actual war, the Prussians, to the surprise of everybody but themselves, defeated Austria within a few weeks, along with Austria's German hangers-on, and were soon driving on Vienna. At this point, Napoleon mobilized the French army to try to nudge the Prussians into keeping the war limited and shying away of conquests directly at Austria's expense. The most Napoleon had in mind was armed mediation, to further bolster his prestige, but Bismarck successfully hustled King Wilhelm, the army, and the Austrians into the Truce of Nikolsburg (later converted into a formal treaty at Prag) and avoided that particular pitfall.

Nevertheless, Napoleon still had the impression that Bismarck would consent to French annexations in the north, and in 1867 began machinations to, in effect, purchase Luxemburg from the struggling Dutch monarchy. The way these machinations turned out is well known: Napoleon was rebuffed by Bismarck, who publicized his alliances with the south German states as a further humiliation, and nobody else in Europe was willing to support his claims (unless you count the free beer dispensed at rallies organized in Luxemburg by French agents, which generated goodwill for as long as the beer lasted). Napoleon was forced to back down and spent the next three years plotting elaborate revenge and suffering increasing pain from his gallstones.

So the time frame doesn't really work out for you.
 
Is this better?

I figured that if Transalpine Gaul is a Roman province, Rhodos and Cilicia would be as well. Its supposed to be a map of de facto as well as de jure control.

Wasn't entirely sure about Pontus either, and what Cappadocia, Lycaonia, and Galatia should look like. If Pontus has lesser Armenia, then that necessitates Cappadocia to look like it does, which I'm not sure it did, and I think I cut out most of it. Unless Lesser Armenia was a Pontic vassal and not de jure Pontic.

Germania and Gaul aren't actually unified. The non-Roman countries aren't playable, they're NPCs for the Roman senators (players) to conquer. So yeah, the idea of 'Germania' and 'Gaul' is just a geographical identity and they won't act in concert very often, if ever.
 

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Well, it's obvious that it's going to be nearly impossible to create a plausible timeline. However, since I still like the general outcome and the NES itself, I'm going to do it.

I'll just change Abraham Lincoln, and say that he was not opposed to a war with Britain because he felt that British involvement would be limited at best, that the South would not be so tough to crack, and that France would be to tied down in Mexico to seriously put up a fight, leaving the Union in a position where victory is possible.

As for Napoleon and the 1866 war, it's probably not too much of a stretch to say that the 1865 meeting happened differently, and in some way Napoleon felt humiliated by Prussia, and felt it necessary to involve France in the conflict, even if Prussia was sure to lose anyway.

We could also change the 1859 affair.
 
Well, it's obvious that it's going to be nearly impossible to create a plausible timeline. However, since I still like the general outcome and the NES itself, I'm going to do it.

I'll just change Abraham Lincoln, and say that he was not opposed to a war with Britain because he felt that British involvement would be limited at best, that the South would not be so tough to crack, and that France would be to tied down in Mexico to seriously put up a fight, leaving the Union in a position where victory is possible.

Why would France be intervening in Mexico if Napoleon managed to maneuver himself into a war with the United States?
 
I just realized France didn't get tied down in Mexico until after the Trent Affair, so you can ignore that portion, but the chain of events had already fired and the intervention in Mexico was well underway. Napoleon still intended to establish a puppet state though, and having the US be divided was advantageous to this.
 
Is this better?

I figured that if Transalpine Gaul is a Roman province, Rhodos and Cilicia would be as well. Its supposed to be a map of de facto as well as de jure control.
The Romans also controlled Narbonensis. The Transalpina was an actual province; Massilia was the only thing in the area akin to Rhodos, and Kilikia - which is really more like Pamphylia - was technically under Roman administration but they really sucked at that, especially during/after the Mithridatic Wars.
Grandkhan said:
Wasn't entirely sure about Pontus either, and what Cappadocia, Lycaonia, and Galatia should look like. If Pontus has lesser Armenia, then that necessitates Cappadocia to look like it does, which I'm not sure it did, and I think I cut out most of it. Unless Lesser Armenia was a Pontic vassal and not de jure Pontic.
"Lesser Armenia" in this context means Pokr Hayk. Nobody called Kilikia "Lesser Armenia" until the eleventh century.
Well, it's obvious that it's going to be nearly impossible to create a plausible timeline.
It's not impossible. You've posited two ideas that are reasonably close to timelines that I've already written. You just seem set on particular elements of those timelines that are implausible.
GamezRule said:
I'll just change Abraham Lincoln, and say that he was not opposed to a war with Britain because he felt that British involvement would be limited at best, that the South would not be so tough to crack, and that France would be to tied down in Mexico to seriously put up a fight, leaving the Union in a position where victory is possible.

As for Napoleon and the 1866 war, it's probably not too much of a stretch to say that the 1865 meeting happened differently, and in some way Napoleon felt humiliated by Prussia, and felt it necessary to involve France in the conflict, even if Prussia was sure to lose anyway.

We could also change the 1859 affair.
I will, once again, register my opposition to these things because they are unhistorical and because magically altering somebody's personality in midlife instead of a "for want of a nail" type thing is abhorrent to me. Lincoln would not simply change his mind out of the blue, and if you were to change his personality enough to do that, then a lot of other things would change too; if you were to make Bismarck stupid enough to give away his unwillingness to commit to Belgium in 1865, he probably wouldn't have been smart enough to have solved the Prussian constitutional crisis in 1862 or have expertly managed the Schleswig-Holstein war two years later.

But you know that and you are okay with that.
 
It's not impossible. You've posited two ideas that are reasonably close to timelines that I've already written. You just seem set on particular elements of those timelines that are implausible.

I suppose I should have said "plausible timeline that will achieve what I'm going for" which is a bit different. The only thing I'm really going for is a world where the CSA achieves independence, and we have a German Empire with Bismark and Wilhelm I and a French Empire with Napoleon III existing and stable at the same time and being somewhat equal in status.

Personally, I'd rather not change personalities either, but I really have no ideas as to plausibly get Britain and the US at war with each other. The other alternative I had was to say that the Trent affair is poorly managed and escalates to a point where either Britain or the US are basically forced to declare war. This could be achieved either by a failure on the part of Seward or Lincoln, or perhaps by a rogue admiral or something attacking a British fleet.

Regarding the NES itself, I'm more interested in having the factors that I stated above then plausibility, but from the beginning I wanted it to be presented in a scenario that was at least somewhat plausible.
 
Random thought experiment/idea that I was entertaining the other day.
Suppose that Christianity dies out completely shortly after its formation, and no other major ahistorical new religion is founded to serve a similar role. Rome still collapses. What would the former empire and its neighboring areas look like in around 600 AD, religiously and politically?
 
Random thought experiment/idea that I was entertaining the other day.
Suppose that Christianity dies out completely shortly after its formation, and no other major ahistorical new religion is founded to serve a similar role. Rome still collapses. What would the former empire and its neighboring areas look like in around 600 AD, religiously and politically?

A lot more Jews. As you know, Christianity and Judaism shared convert pools for quite some time, so eliminating that competition helps Judaism. Greek cultures are easily accommodated with monotheisms (since so many of their theogonies are a perpetually patri/fratricidal series of heaven-kings taking over for the last) the only question is which. Barring that, the continued persistence of a mish-mash of gnostic faiths and medium-sized cults (along with Jews) under the auspices of the Greek pantheon, broadly re-interpreted for each culture that uses it.

There's an outside chance of Zoroastrian and Manichean (esque) faiths making more headway in this ATL as well.
 
What would the former empire and its neighboring areas look like in around 600 AD, religiously and politically?
Impossible to say. Six centuries of divergence means all sorts of random crap can happen.
 
A lot more Jews. As you know, Christianity and Judaism shared convert pools for quite some time, so eliminating that competition helps Judaism.

It doesn't really work like that because 1) Judaism didn't become "Judaism" until after the PoD; 2) The Judaism that we are familiar with only became such as a result of interacting with Christianity; 3) Judaism was not particularly "mission" minded meaning there is no particular reason to assume a dramatic demographic change (in particular that whole "snip the tip" thing for some strange reason caused males to be very cautious in fully converting) 4) There were more religious options than just Christianity/Judaism, just because one is absent doesn't mean a huge demographic shift in favor of the other.

Greek cultures are easily accommodated with monotheisms (since so many of their theogonies are a perpetually patri/fratricidal series of heaven-kings taking over for the last) the only question is which.

There are no real trends that cause us to think monotheism would become dominant in the absence of Christianity. The main religious trends at the time were Augustus' religious reforms and the increasing popularity of eastern religions (especially notable here is the cult of Isis and not only because it is the subject of one of the coolest titled novels of the day) and the so-called "mystery" religions.
 
How would the Roman Empire respond if they had somehow lost Rome to Hannibal? Would the Romans have resisted more, gone in exile, given up, or something else?
 
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