I think it would have been a sinking ship. But the loss of Rome isn't a really good diversion, tons of more likely ways for the Carthaginians to score a victory.
Alternate History Thread V
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
I think it would have been a sinking ship. But the loss of Rome isn't a really good diversion, tons of more likely ways for the Carthaginians to score a victory.
I'm guessing that one of these better ways of conquering Rome would be destroying or gaining the favor of smaller cities?
MoreEpicThanYou
The most Epic.
So, my idea for a EU3 mod is an alt-hist where Alexander never got his fever. His empire still collapsed upon his death 30 years later, but he used that time to cement Greek culture and religion throughout his conquests. Memories of this Golden Age last throughout Roman times, and when the Muslims come they manage to get through Egypt, but cannot get past the Fertile Crescent. As a result, they focus more efforts on expanding elsewhere, resulting in a stronger Muslim presence in southern India and southeast Asia in general, as well as a slightly larger Granada. Hellenism and Byzantine-level technology survive throughout the Middle East.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
Most of those things don't really have anything to do with each other.
Alexander surviving probably wouldn't have resulted in a meaningfully "stronger" Greek culture in the East. His successors did the overwhelming majority of that work, and they controlled pretty much all of his old empire for centuries after his death.
If this Greek culture were "stronger" in some way, though, I don't see it having any meaningful impact on Islam (assuming Islam were to still be a thing after nearly a millennium of divergence). Why would Greek culture have a military impact? I just don't see it.
Alexander surviving probably wouldn't have resulted in a meaningfully "stronger" Greek culture in the East. His successors did the overwhelming majority of that work, and they controlled pretty much all of his old empire for centuries after his death.
If this Greek culture were "stronger" in some way, though, I don't see it having any meaningful impact on Islam (assuming Islam were to still be a thing after nearly a millennium of divergence). Why would Greek culture have a military impact? I just don't see it.
If the Greek states are stronger in any way, does Rome still conquer them? If Rome doesn't, then it could mean that Christianity doesn't even exist, it probably means that Jesus doesn't even exist. I mean, the chances that all the same people would still meet...and do it at the right time...is virtually none. Could it affect the Punic Wars in any way? I believe that the second and third wars were after Alexander's time.
how does this follow?
Try reading the rest of the post?
It's not like I consider the above statement to be definitive, I was questioning the ATL more than stating why it wouldn't happen.
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Honestly, I don't see why the Butterfly Effect has become the gospel of alternate history. Last I checked, there were two functional reasons to make althists -- to have fun and to analyze history, and the exploration of contingency for contingency's sake doesn't really further either one. 
Right, so instead of giving my "thoughts" like MoreEpicThanYou asked, I'll just lie and hugbox. Thanks for the tip.Honestly, I don't see why the Butterfly Effect has become the gospel of alternate history. Last I checked, there were two functional reasons to make althists -- to have fun and to analyze history, and the exploration of contingency for contingency's sake doesn't really further either one.
Kraznaya
Princeps
North King
blech
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,165
Was actually directed at GamezRule, but... okay?
EDIT: I guess, looking back on the course of the last page, you could interpret it being directed against you, but honestly it's just a pet peeve of mine which surfaces here a lot. That said, I don't know why the alternative to repeating this over and over is just "lie and hugbox" (apparently "hugbox" is the new trendy word?).
The Strategos
Thanatos
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,175
Gesta Dei per Mongolos
Prelude: Wait, youre not Dachs, so why am I reading this?[1]
I will bring evil and a great destruction. The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way. Jeremiah 4.6-7
Truly an evil, a great destruction was unleashed upon the world in 1251. In that year the Mongols, the most feared race in the world, gained a new Khan, Mongka.[2] After a year during which Mongka defeated his rivals to the throne, the Mongols were once again poised to continue their conquest of the world. The main efforts of this new phase in expansion were under Mongkas brother Kubilai, who undertook the conquest of all of China, and in the west under another of Mongkas brothers, Hulagu, who commanded the Mongols in Persia.
Hulagus task in the west was to be made easier by their two Christian vassals, Georgia and Armenian Cilicia. In 1248, the King of Armenia, Hethoum, had sent his brother to the court of the Great Khan to promise to be the Mongols vassal in exchange for protection against the encroaching Muslims. The Mongols agreed to this exchange, though the death of the Khan prevented any action being taken. With Mongka firmly established as the new Khan, in 1254, Hethoum himself traveled to the Mongolian court in order to gain their assistance.
The new Mongolian Khan, though himself following the traditional shamanistic practices of his ancestors, particularly favored the Christian Church of the East. His mother had been a member of this church as was his chief wife and several minor wives. When Hethoum arrived to give his submission to the new Khan in person, he was treated with favor. In addition to gaining favored status as a Mongolian vassal, Hethoum was considered the Khans chief Christian advisor on matters pertaining to western Asia. In this role, Hethoum was promised that all Christian churches and monasteries would be free from taxation. If Christians continued to support the Mongols, after the conquest of Jerusalem it would be handed over to Christian control.
While the Mongol policy seemed to favor Christians, it must be emphasized that it favored Christians as loyal vassals, not because of any inherent virtue the Christians held. This was made clear by the quite chilly reception diplomats from the West received at the Mongol court. Since the first western diplomat to the current ones at Mongkas court, the message to the west was the same: have the western kings travel to the Great Khans Court and submit. The Mongol worldview allowed only two categories of nations: vassals and enemies. The Church of the East was promoted because they made loyal vassals. The Western Christians, who wanted to be a third category, equal allies, by necessity of Mongolian diplomatic understanding must eventually be made either vassals or enemies.[3]
In January 1256 the Mongolians were ready to renew their conquests against the Muslims. The Mongol army was led by Mongkas brother Hulagu. While himself shamanistic, his principal wife, Dokuz Khatun, was part of the Church of the East and used her influence to promote Christianity of all flavors and persecute Muslims. The Mongolian armys plan was to first attack the Assassin headquarters in Persia as they had killed Jagatai, the second son of Genghis Khan, and so must be punished without delay. Afterwards, the Mongols intended to take the base of the Muslim Caliph at Baghdad before proceeding to Syria. Not leaving anything to chance, the Mongols carefully planned their attack, bringing siege-machines from China, ensuring pastures were set aside for the armys use on its march, gathering warriors from across the mighty empire, and sending a smaller army under the Christian Kitbuqa ahead to prepare the way by capturing key towns and minor strongholds that could delay the main army.
The Assassins were taken care of within the year. By December the leader, Rukn ad-Din was dead, and 1257 was devoted to mopping up the remnants until only a few refuges hiding in the Persian mountains remained. The Mongols next turned to the bigger prize, Baghdad. At the time, Baghdad was ruled by the Caliph al-Mustasim of the Abbasid dynasty. Though Baghdad had long since ceased to be the undisputed ruler of the Muslim world, the rivalry between Cairo and Damascus allowed Baghdad to occupy the mediating role, and thus have great influence over the region.
At first look, Baghdad appeared to be a formidable opponent. Baghdad itself was strongly fortified and it could call upon a large army, some say the cavalry alone numbered 120,000. Because of its importance to the Islamic community, there was the possibility it would receive aide from either Damascus, Egypt, or both. Meanwhile, the Mongols would have to worry about rebellions among its own Muslim population.
These potential strengths, however, did little to mask the underlying weakness of Baghdad. The army was of dubious loyalty, which had caused the Caliph to recently shrink its size. In addition, the court of the Caliph was rift with infighting, the two principle opponents being the vizier and secretary. The vizier favored a strategy of appeasement but was overruled by the secretarys influence, leading to war with the Mongols.
The Mongol army had swelled with reinforcements: a contingent from the Golden Horde, an army under Baichu who had been operating near Anatolia, and cavalry from Georgia. By the end of 1257, the Mongols had crossed the into the Caliphs territory divided into three armies commanded by Hulagu, who advanced through Kermanshah, Baichu, who crossed the Tigris and followed the river south, and the Christian Kitbuqa, who was operating in the plains of Iraq due east of Baghdad.
The Muslim army met Baichus army thirty miles from Baghdad on January 11, 1258. Baichus army lured the Muslims into a marsh using a feigned retreat. That night, he had his engineers destroy the dykes of the Euphrates so that the area behind the Muslim army was flooded, trapping them between his own army and the water. The battle on the next day was a near massacre, with the Caliph escaping to Baghdad with only his bodyguards remaining from his army. Within the week Baghdad was under siege by the Mongols. During the first week of February, the walls were breached by the Mongol siege train, leading to the surrender of the Caliph to the Mongols on the 15th.
The Caliphs surrender did little to change the fate of himself or his city. After under torture he told the Mongols where he hid his treasure, the Caliph was killed. Meanwhile the entire city was massacred (the Christian Georgians were reported to be especially eager in fulfilling this task). Over the next forty days, a reported eighty thousand residents of Baghdad were killed. The survivors were mostly made up of attractive boys and girls, who became slaves, and Christians who had sought refuge in one of the churches. By special order of Hulagus wife, the churches, and those who sought refuge in them, were spared. By the end of March, the stench of the dead was so overwhelming that the Mongol army departed, fearing that it otherwise would be struck down by a plague.
Eastern Christians, who had been a repressed minority now became a majority thanks to the fact that they were the only ones left alive. Their Patriarch was given a former royal palace for his residence and to build a new church. Throughout the east, Eastern Christians celebrated the fall of Baghdad, the second Babylon and saw Hulagu as the new Constantine and his wife a new Helena.[4] The Mongols next turned to Damascus and in September 1259 four Mongol armies set out for Damascus. By January, Aleppo was besieged. The Sultan of Damascus, an-Nasir Yusuf, literally and figuratively shat his pants, and offered to become the Mameluks of Egpyts vassal if they would save him from the Mongols. The Mameluks accepted his offer, but their help would not arrive in time. Meanwhile, an-Nasir gathered his army outside of Damascus in order to relieve Aleppo. Unfortunately for him, while waiting for the army to finish assembling, some of his Turkish officers began to plot against him. An-Nasir discovered the plot in time, but the officers, and one of an-Nasirs brothers, fled to Egpyt with their men. This defection weakened an-Nasir so much[5] that he decided not to attempt to save Aleppo.
Abandoned by Damascus, Aleppo fell to the Mongols after their city walls were breached by a six day bombardment. While the citadel would hold out for four more weeks, the city suffered a massacre, in what was becoming near traditional, the Muslims were exterminated while the Christians who sought refuge in their churches were spared. The fortress of Harenc was the next place to fall to the Mongol advance, which placed them near the Crusader state of Antioch. There, the King of Armenia and his son-in-law, the Prince of Antioch Bohemond visited the Mongol camp in the custom of loyal vassals everywhere. Armenia, which had helped the Mongols capture Aleppo, was rewarded with land and spoils from the siege, while Antioch, was also given land, though required to install a Greek (Orthodox) patriarch in his city in place of the Latin (Catholic) one. Bohemond carried through with the Mongols wishes and was rewarded for his loyalty to them by being excommunicated by the Pope.
With the news of the fall of Aleppo and the Mongol armies approaching Damascus, an-Nasir promptly fled for Egypt. He then changed his mind, and started heading north again before being captured by the Mongols as he dithered around. By all accounts this was addition by subtraction for the Muslim forces. Abandoned by their glorious sultan, Damascus surrendered without a fight, avoiding the massacre that befell other cities. On March 1, 1260, the Mongols and their Christian allies, including the King of Armenia and Prince of Antioch, entered the city. With Damascus having fallen, Hulagu sent an ambassador to Egypt to demand their submission. The Mameluks answered rather diplomatically given the circumstances by killing the ambassador and gathering their army to meet the Mongols in Syria.
Thus ends the prelude. In a universe very different from this one, the Mongol Khan, Mongka, died, causing Hulagu to withdraw with the bulk of his army in order to participate in all of the bickering and backroom politics that always accompanied choosing a new leader. The remnants of his army left in Syria, about 10,000 men under Kitbuqa, were defeated by a much larger Mamluk army. So ended the greatest threat Islam had ever known. But unfortunately for the Mamluks, in this universe Mongka continues healthy and spry, Hulagu does not prematurely end his campaign, and the Mamluks are forced to place themselves under zombie Saint Louis of France, brought to a state of non-life thanks to Islamic sorcery and his own burning desire to rule Jerusalem. The Mongols are defeated and a thousand year reign of the Immortal King is ushered in Jerusalem. All this and more will be described in Gesta Dei per Mongolos CHAPTER 1
[1] Of course not implying that they would read it if it was by Dachs
[2] I would like to state well ahead of time that I dont care enough about the scholarly consensus on how to spell non-English names to look it up. If someone must be anal, feel free to look it up and tell me and Ill use the find and change all function in word to correct the spelling.
[3] And thus, like all Mongol alternate histories, this one will end with Mongols conquering all Europe and, after chasing fleeing Vikings, discover an America populated by Chinese settlers who had previously conquered all of the southwestern US after interbreeding with the native Aztecs.
[4] Yes Helena was Constantines mother. But remember, Romans and Mongols shared a love for incestuous passions, so the analogy doesnt break down as much as one would think.
[5] That or he was just a wuss.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Wait. Zombie Saint Louis of France?
Good choice of POD. It's a ripe era http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8749684&postcount=376
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
This is what is traditionally termed a "joke," alex.
Excellent TL thus far, Strategos.
I'm interested.
Question: It seems like you're using Eastern Christian and (Greek) Orthodox interchangeably throughout. Was this semi-shared identity actually a Thing at the time? (I dunno.)
Also, it looks like you kept spelling Egypt "Egpyt".
Question: It seems like you're using Eastern Christian and (Greek) Orthodox interchangeably throughout. Was this semi-shared identity actually a Thing at the time? (I dunno.)
Also, it looks like you kept spelling Egypt "Egpyt".
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
I was going for maybe an imposter pretending to be the good Saint sent back by God, who eventually starts his own faith and etc.
Kraznaya
Princeps
So what happened to Mongke in China if he didn't die?
Similar threads
