Alternate History Thread V
- Thread starter Dachs
- Start date
Like always getting overrun by France. I hate it when that happens. North King
blech
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- 18,165
Fair enough. 
Yeah to be honest, the superpowered Portugal in the Arcadia time line just kind of made me feel sorry for Spain. On a good day it just sits there and does nothing and on a bad day it either gets absorbed by France, divided into half a dozen smaller states, plagued by civil wars or some combination of all three. Its high time we see an Industrial Age Spanish superpower and preferably without those snarky Portuguese there to bother them. I actually also wouldn't mind seeing a strong and longer lasting Visigothic Spain.
Kraznaya
Princeps
It's because Spain had a huge empire OTL and no one really likes it.
Well the whole point of an alt-history concerning them would be to make them cool again.
What's with all the Hispanophobia? Can't Spain get some love.
Kraznaya
Princeps
Meh, I'll take the jewel of Cordova over the Spanish Inquisition any day... al-Andalus forever.
Well true, the Muslims were making huge advances in chemistry, astronomy, mathematics, medicines and physics and even aerodynamics (there was some guy in Muslim Spain who made a hang glider and a parachute, can't remember his name) while the rest of Europe was basically living in holes in the ground but we've heard the story about how much the Muslims kicked @ss during this period a thousand times. I'm ready for something more unique in this part of the world. Besides the Spanish Inquisition did have one thing going for it....
Spoiler :
Kraznaya
Princeps
You don't need alt history to see Christian Spain to be a superpower though, just see the 16th century.
North King
blech
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That's actually... a somewhat warped view of history. The Empire of the Hapsburgs was a superpower, no doubt about that. But Spain was not really the center of this empire. A lot of their manpower came from Germany, most of their capital came from Italy, most of their production came from the Netherlands (until they decided to be really silly...), most of their technical expertise from, oh, just about anywhere... Spain was only really the center of the empire -- and sometimes not even that, as kings often resided elsewhere. And as for the overseas empire, the Spanish were often hilariously inept. Most of the supplies for Spanish America came from foreign smugglers (hence why the Spanish were never really serious about getting rid of them); most of the colonies were incredibly ill-defended: a lot of them escaped capture through reputation alone. Also note the ease with which Englishmen got their hands on the vaunted gold and silver shipments...
That's not to say that Spain was completely impotent. It was powerful at times on its own, occasionally even a major power. But not really a superpower unless it was coupled with other nations, and certainly not the hyperpower that contemporaries liked to think it was.
So yeah, thinking through it, a legitimate powerful Spanish Empire (as opposed to a Hapsburg or Bourbon) would be a real gem to see.
But I think it would have to be run by someone other than the Castillians (also something that would be fun to see). In a couple of the timelines I'm working on, I've been playing with a Catalonian Empire (occasionally a Catalan-Occitanian hybrid); something like a land-power Portugal would also be interesting to see. While I love the Basques, I can't see them ever becoming the dominant power in Iberia; their manpower is too low, and their culture too different. Possibly a Muslim Spain surviving? Or simply a Spain that never gets the crutch of the Hapsburg monarchy and has to fend largely for itself...
Oh, and please don't take the Muslims away from Spain. Continuing Visigoths would be interesting (well, more amusing than anything else), but the Moors were the best thing to happen to Medieval Spain.
That's not to say that Spain was completely impotent. It was powerful at times on its own, occasionally even a major power. But not really a superpower unless it was coupled with other nations, and certainly not the hyperpower that contemporaries liked to think it was.
So yeah, thinking through it, a legitimate powerful Spanish Empire (as opposed to a Hapsburg or Bourbon) would be a real gem to see.
But I think it would have to be run by someone other than the Castillians (also something that would be fun to see). In a couple of the timelines I'm working on, I've been playing with a Catalonian Empire (occasionally a Catalan-Occitanian hybrid); something like a land-power Portugal would also be interesting to see. While I love the Basques, I can't see them ever becoming the dominant power in Iberia; their manpower is too low, and their culture too different. Possibly a Muslim Spain surviving? Or simply a Spain that never gets the crutch of the Hapsburg monarchy and has to fend largely for itself...Oh, and please don't take the Muslims away from Spain. Continuing Visigoths would be interesting (well, more amusing than anything else), but the Moors were the best thing to happen to Medieval Spain.
That's actually... a somewhat warped view of history. The Empire of the Hapsburgs was a superpower, no doubt about that. But Spain was not really the center of this empire. A lot of their manpower came from Germany, most of their capital came from Italy, most of their production came from the Netherlands (until they decided to be really silly...), most of their technical expertise from, oh, just about anywhere... Spain was only really the center of the empire -- and sometimes not even that, as kings often resided elsewhere. And as for the overseas empire, the Spanish were often hilariously inept. Most of the supplies for Spanish America came from foreign smugglers (hence why the Spanish were never really serious about getting rid of them); most of the colonies were incredibly ill-defended: a lot of them escaped capture through reputation alone. Also note the ease with which Englishmen got their hands on the vaunted gold and silver shipments...
That's not to say that Spain was completely impotent. It was powerful at times on its own, occasionally even a major power. But not really a superpower unless it was coupled with other nations, and certainly not the hyperpower that contemporaries liked to think it was.
So yeah, thinking through it, a legitimate powerful Spanish Empire (as opposed to a Hapsburg or Bourbon) would be a real gem to see.
Oh, and please don't take the Muslims away from Spain. Continuing Visigoths would be interesting (well, more amusing than anything else), but the Moors were the best thing to happen to Medieval Spain.
for most of the 16th century, was not the habsburg empire split in two?
EDIT: After the reign of charles V.
That's actually... a somewhat warped view of history. The Empire of the Hapsburgs was a superpower, no doubt about that. But Spain was not really the center of this empire. A lot of their manpower came from Germany, most of their capital came from Italy, most of their production came from the Netherlands (until they decided to be really silly...), most of their technical expertise from, oh, just about anywhere... Spain was only really the center of the empire -- and sometimes not even that, as kings often resided elsewhere. And as for the overseas empire, the Spanish were often hilariously inept. Most of the supplies for Spanish America came from foreign smugglers (hence why the Spanish were never really serious about getting rid of them); most of the colonies were incredibly ill-defended: a lot of them escaped capture through reputation alone. Also note the ease with which Englishmen got their hands on the vaunted gold and silver shipments...
That's not to say that Spain was completely impotent. It was powerful at times on its own, occasionally even a major power. But not really a superpower unless it was coupled with other nations, and certainly not the hyperpower that contemporaries liked to think it was.
So yeah, thinking through it, a legitimate powerful Spanish Empire (as opposed to a Hapsburg or Bourbon) would be a real gem to see.
Oh, and please don't take the Muslims away from Spain. Continuing Visigoths would be interesting (well, more amusing than anything else), but the Moors were the best thing to happen to Medieval Spain.
Maybe if we had the Visigoths convert to Islam instead of being conquered? Is this at all plausible? Also, I realize the Byzantine were overstretched as it is, but what about a rogue Byzantine General turning the possessions into an independent kingdom of some sort earlier on. On the subject, is anyone else taking Spain possible at this time (early Middle Ages)? Normans? Italians? Vikings?
And I do agree that taking away the Castilians's power in favor of maybe the Catalonians, Aragonese or someone mentioned above might be more long term beneficial to the country. The way they ruled the Spanish Empire as primarily a way to exploit local resources rather than as a settler colony was something that weakened them a lot long term I think. I'm pretty sure I even remember reading that the gold and silver brought from the Americas just caused prices to rise without any real economic growth and also prevented the rise of any strong merchant or middle class as in Germany, England or France from developing for a much longer amount of time.
Condor_green
King
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2008
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- 661
The whole France invading Spain thing is kinda unrealistic because of the whole Iberian mountain range deal. Its pretty hard to send an invasion force over those mountains
Nylan
Characters Welcome
Ummm......wat? Pretty sure it's the exact opposite of unrealistic.
As in, like, it happened.
I support the creation of an independent Exarchate of Carthago/Karchedon/Africa under Yennadios, which in turn acquires southern Spain. After all, it was all part of the same Prefecture of Africa under Ioustinianos and later, so the administrative framework is still there.
Normans and Vikings (why differentiate?) could interfere with the taifas later on (I put that into my first althist on these forums, a long time ago, though I did it wrong). Italy ain't happening.
and didn't end up doing too good?
And if you quip the whole two-front war thing, remember that only is it very rarely
p) that one side has the greatest military mind in history on their side.
Nylan
Characters Welcome
and didn't end up doing too good?
And if you quip the whole two-front war thing, remember that only is it very rarely
The French had no problems with the pyrenees so much as with a billion other issues, and it is abundantly obvious that France invading Spain was not hard to believe as stated because it happens to have been done. You're reading too far into this.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Dachs, you got there before I could. Though granted, there was a favorable domestic regime in Spain at the time.
The Pyrenees actually aren't that hard to cross in force, as there are major gaps near the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts, in addition to significant Hautes-Pyrenees passes.
The Pyrenees actually aren't that hard to cross in force, as there are major gaps near the Atlantic and Mediterranean coasts, in addition to significant Hautes-Pyrenees passes.
No, Spain was in civil war. I doubt Vendôme owed his victories of fall 1710 to the "favorable domestic regime". You know, where he crossed the Pyrenees and recaptured Madrid after Starhemberg had beat the tar out of Felipe V's armies and overrun virtually all of Spain.
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