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Am I wrong to respect the person in my avatar ... Heinz Guderian ?

LightSpectra said:
Having an avatar for parody's sake (which I assume it is for your case) is a different example. My avatar was at one point Kaiser Wilhelm II with the under text "You English are Mad." The topic creator appears to genuinely respect Guderian as a human being; at least to the point of excusing him for not standing up to Hitler.

I don't approve of White Australia but that doesn't preclude me from admiring one of the best Prime Ministers in Australia's history. It is, I imagine, no different from an American having an avatar of Washington, even though he owned slaves. In much the same way, one can admire Guderian for being whatever-it-is he did that deserves respect, while ignoring (minimising or downplaying) some negative facet of his character. I wouldn't throw Washington out with the bathwater solely on the basis that he owned slaves for instance. There is much more to the man than that.
 
1. Yes, you are wrong.

2. There's no such thing as "partly Jewish." You either are or you aren't. You aren't.

Maybe you can accuse of him being a self-hating one-quarter jew.
 
I don't approve of White Australia but that doesn't preclude me from admiring one of the best Prime Ministers in Australia's history. It is, I imagine, no different from an American having an avatar of Washington, even though he owned slaves. In much the same way, one can admire Guderian for being whatever-it-is he did that deserves respect, while ignoring (minimising or downplaying) some negative facet of his character. I wouldn't throw Washington out with the bathwater solely on the basis that he owned slaves for instance. There is much more to the man than that.
This.
 
If the respect you lend to him is on a purely professional basis, and acknowledges the moral inadequacy of his political neutrality (Guderian was noted for his refusal to become involved in politics affairs, seeing himself a soldier and a soldier alone), then I don't see anything wrong with it. Not the most tasteful choice, perhaps, but not actually offensive.
 
I have already received 3 messages (from the same person) accusing me of being a Nazi. Which is quite hurtful and reported it accordingly, as I am partly Jewish).

I see Heinz Guderian as simply a Panzer General first. i.e. his work product. He does appear to have being a "Nazi" (member of the National Socialists), but I suspect nearly every WWII German General was or had to have been in order to retain their rank.

Similarly, I saw Michael Jackson for his work product, and not his personal life.

Someone once said, "If you're not offending someone, somewhere, you're not doing it right." :mischief:

With different value systems out there - including several contradictory so-called absolutist ones :)lol:) - there's no way that you can express yourself without someone being offended. And the number of people offended enough to write to you is small, so I think it tells you more about them than it does about you.

There are twice as many Jews in the United States as there are Buddhists (like me), but that still means there are a significant number of us. Buddhists are very often pacifist, but guess how many of us are offended by your avatar, or by the communist tanks, or all the other war leaders. Exactly.
 
What exactly is funny about that?
Don't you find it funny that there are contradictory so-called truths, especially from people or groups that claim an absolutist point of view, and who also often disparage people with relativist points of view? I do. Your mileage may vary, but if you have a more useful and pragmatic response than humor, I'll be pleased to hear it and consider modifying my behavior. :)
 
Don't you find it funny that there are contradictory so-called truths, especially from people or groups that claim an absolutist point of view, and who also often disparage people with relativist points of view? I do.

It's funny that people believe in truth but cannot always agree on it?
 
It's funny that people believe in truth but cannot always agree on it?
There's a big, big difference in believing that there is a truth (or truths) and believing that what you believe is actually the truth to the point that others people's contradictory beliefs are wrong.

I have great respect for seekers after truth, no matter how misguided their causes may seem to some. I appreciate sincerity and self-honesty. Thus I have respect for those who can disagree, and I respect people who can agree to disagree. I have rather less respect for those who believe they have a monopoly on the truth and who foist their "rightness" on others.

But I don't get agitated by it! There seems to be a never-ending supply of people with absolutist views who forcibly contradict other people with different absolutist views. And since that seems to me logically and philosophically absurd, I take what for me is a natural response, and one that does not confront or contradict them in turn: I smile! What do you do?
 
It is never a good thing to be martyred, as you only have one life and it should be respected, and I also doubt if his martyrdom would have made any impact on the Nazi's hold on power.

The Germans who tried to bring down Hitler had no intention on being martyrs. They were trying to save themselves & their country. Rommel committed suicide because that plot failed & he needed to protect his family, not because he was suicidal or intended to be some kind of martyr.

I doubt he would have ever done that, as he came from a military family and as such there is instilled in him a sense of duty.

That means nothing. Duty to do what? The Japanese felt a duty to die for the emperor. The Nazis felt a duty to "purify" their "race" & murder & enslave others. Having a sense of duty is not noble. It depends on what the duty is.

Also, from our perspective of "hindsight", we would be wrong to "judge" him, in the world he was in.

Utter nonsense. Are we wrong to judge Charles Manson because we weren't there when he sent people out to murder? Are we wrong to judge Mark Chapman because we weren't standing there on the sidewalk when he shot John Lennon? Of course not.

The Nazi's were infusing a sense of pride in Germany at the time and many of the leaderships crimes were well hidden from the general population, until much later, although as a senior officer he would have know about these.

While it's true that many crimes were kept out of public view, there were plenty of indications that the train had gone off the tracks. Kristalnacht was very public. The murderous elimination of the SA couldn't be hidden. Jews, homosexuals, political opponents & the mentally ill were dragged away, never to return. That was noticed & was hardly something to be proud of.

To be aligned with the Nazi's at the time was considered good citizenship.

Only by the Nazis themselves. For the rest of the Germans, it was deadly not to be aligned with the Nazis.

As to my Jewishness: My grandfather was a slave-labourer for WWII Germany as he was 1/4 Jewish by blood, any more and they may have exterminated him and I would not exist.

This is what's most disturbing. Even if your grandfather wasn't worthy of your respect, even if he was the worst kind of human scum, it doesn't explain why you would respect, idolize or venerate a man who fought to enslave him. The crime of slavery far outweighs whatever your grandfather did to make you think he deserved to be enslaved.

I can't imagine how mentally disturbed I'd have to be to promote & defend somebody who enslaved or murdered my family.

As I said before, your Jewishness equals none whatsoever.

Maybe you can accuse of him being a self-hating one-quarter jew.

Can't even do that. He's not 1/4 Jewish (which is an impossibility itself), his grandfather supposedly was & then only according to Nazi ideology. I can't say that he's self-hating, but it blows my mind that he has a admiration for somebody he says enslaved his grandfather.
 
There's a big, big difference in believing that there is a truth (or truths) and believing that what you believe is actually the truth to the point that others people's contradictory beliefs are wrong.

Is there a reason I should think other peoples' contradictory beliefs are right?

There seems to be a never-ending supply of people with absolutist views who forcibly contradict other people with different absolutist views. And since that seems to me logically and philosophically absurd,

Why's that? It's logically absurd that two people disagree?

take what for me is a natural response, and one that does not confront or contradict them in turn: I smile! What do you do?

If it's about a matter I care about, I investigate until one position is apparently the truth, or give up knowing that the matter is too difficult to solve with my current resources.

You don't actually know who Guderian is, do you? :huh:

He didn't personally do those things, but he unarguably aided those causes by fighting for their perpetrators.
 
That means nothing. Duty to do what? The Japanese felt a duty to die for the emperor. The Nazis felt a duty to "purify" their "race" & murder & enslave others. Having a sense of duty is not noble. It depends on what the duty is.
I disagree. Duty in the way I understand it is not just something you feel compelled to do.
It means to honor a mutual contract, to give something back to someone or something you feel you receive and/or received something valuable from. Like the care of parents. Or the brotherhood of friends. The dedicated leadership of a military officer. Or the environment a nation provided you.
And this in and of itself always in deed is noble. Everything beyond that may be despicable or may be something you don't like. Fine. Doesn't change the noble nature of true duty.
This is what's most disturbing. Even if your grandfather wasn't worthy of your respect, even if he was the worst kind of human scum, it doesn't explain why you would respect, idolize or venerate a man who fought to enslave him. The crime of slavery far outweighs whatever your grandfather did to make you think he deserved to be enslaved.

I can't imagine how mentally disturbed I'd have to be to promote & defend somebody who enslaved or murdered my family.

As I said before, your Jewishness equals none whatsoever.
Dude, your strong opinions obviously cloud your judgment. That or you just like to think in stereo-types which fit your sense of right and wrong.
Heinz certainly did not fight to enslave Jews... He fought for the glory of Germany, and later for the survival of it. That is what military leaders did back in the day.
 
He didn't personally do those things, but he unarguably aided those causes by fighting for their perpetrators.
Granted, but there's a distinction there that Maimonides simply did not acknowledge. One cannot conflate an apolitical soldier in the service of a regime with the regime itself; that Guderain was of a high rank does not change this.
 
Is there a reason I should think other peoples' contradictory beliefs are right?
There's no reason you should think or do anything. "Should" implies a prescription of some sort, one that is based on a cast iron position - fact rather than belief or opinion.

Why's that? It's logically absurd that two people disagree?
No. It's absurd when people have unprovable beliefs and have no room for another person's unprovable belief. That's not disagreement; that's bigotry.

If it's about a matter I care about, I investigate until one position is apparently the truth, or give up knowing that the matter is too difficult to solve with my current resources.
Cool. That's an admirable approach. The threshold between the two stages comes quickly for me in my experience. The court promise "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" seems an impossible quest; how can one ever know the whole truth about any situation? But there are actually very few things that I would care about that much anymore, and pragmatically there is never anything that would be so distracting as to disturb my happiness.
 
If the respect you lend to him is on a purely professional basis, and acknowledges the moral inadequacy of his political neutrality (Guderian was noted for his refusal to become involved in politics affairs, seeing himself a soldier and a soldier alone), then I don't see anything wrong with it. Not the most tasteful choice, perhaps, but not actually offensive.
I also respect the leadership skills of Erich von Manstein, who was not a member of the Nazi's.
 
I disagree. Duty in the way I understand it is not just something you feel compelled to do.
It means to honor a mutual contract, to give something back to someone or something you feel you receive and/or received something valuable from. Like the care of parents. Or the brotherhood of friends. The dedicated leadership of a military officer. Or the environment a nation provided you.
And this in and of itself always in deed is noble. Everything beyond that may be despicable or may be something you don't like. Fine. Doesn't change the noble nature of true duty.

True duty is to goodness, not to regimes. There would've been no Holocaust or World War II if Germans didn't feel as if it were their duty to be loyal to Hitler. In fact, the word "duty" becomes utterly meaningless if it can legitimately be used to justify fighting for such wicked causes in the same way it can be used to justify fighting for justice.

Dude, your strong opinions obviously cloud your judgment. That or you just like to think in stereo-types which fit your sense of right and wrong.
Heinz certainly did not fight to enslave Jews... He fought for the glory of Germany, and later for the survival of it. That is what military leaders did back in the day.

No, it was Stauffenberg and the White Rose students that fought for the glory of Germany, not Guderian or Manstein.

Granted, but there's a distinction there that Maimonides simply did not acknowledge. One cannot conflate an apolitical soldier in the service of a regime with the regime itself; that Guderain was of a high rank does not change this.

I don't particularly care how political Guderian was, the fact of the matter is that you're going to aid some political cause or another by giving your skills to some interested party. In this case, the interested party was authoring some of the worst crimes in the history of mankind. Supposing Guderian were simply capable of turning a blind eye to what his government was doing is nonsense, since the very premise of this argument is that Guderian was a highly intelligent fellow.

Which is not to say that Guderian is no better than Himmler or Model, but there's no clear reason why we should absolve apolitical Germans that fought for Nazi Germany.

I also respect the leadership skills of Erich von Manstein, who was not a member of the Nazi's.

Are you aware that Manstein promulgated orders to draconically torment Jews, independent of any command from Hitler or the OKH?

There's no reason you should think or do anything. "Should" implies a prescription of some sort, one that is based on a cast iron position - fact rather than belief or opinion.

Having established that, is there any reason therefore why it's amusing that two people's perceptions of fact are not always in agreement, and they argue to determine which is right?

No. It's absurd when people have unprovable beliefs and have no room for another person's unprovable belief. That's not disagreement; that's bigotry.

That presumes a priori that the aforementioned beliefs are unprovable, which isn't always the case. Even if it were so, "unprovable" is not synonymous with "wrong".

Cool. That's an admirable approach. The threshold between the two stages comes quickly for me in my experience. The court promise "to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" seems an impossible quest; how can one ever know the whole truth about any situation?

Because they're not asking the testifier to play God and give the whole truth, but rather everything he is aware of.

But there are actually very few things that I would care about that much anymore, and pragmatically there is never anything that would be so distracting as to disturb my happiness.

What you are calling "happiness" is nothing but your personal inclination to pleasure. Such a relativist position is dangerous and irresponsible, and maybe perhaps demonstrably wrong depending on how much of it you have thought through.
 
I don't particularly care how political Guderian was, the fact of the matter is that you're going to aid some political cause or another by giving your skills to some interested party. In this case, the interested party was authoring some of the worst crimes in the history of mankind. Supposing Guderian were simply capable of turning a blind eye to what his government was doing is nonsense, since the very premise of this argument is that Guderian was a highly intelligent fellow.

Which is not to say that Guderian is no better than Himmler or Model, but there's no clear reason why we should absolve apolitical Germans that fought for Nazi Germany.
Again, I don't disagree, I'm just suggesting that there are nuances to this that Maimonides failed to acknowledge. Everything that you say, after all, is fundamentally true of any German soldier at that time; Guderian is distinguished only by the individual resistance which he may have potentially brought to bear, not the basic choice of whether or not to do so. He have been complicit in the crimes of the Third Reich, but he was not, as Maimonides appears to believe, responsible for them.
 
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