American Muslims fear a new wave of Islamophobia
- Thread starter Formaldehyde
- Start date
True.
Such a shame because I fancy Jesus.
Nah... you "fancy" Cesare Borgia (Pope Alexander VI's son)
... now that was a good looking fella... I can see why they used him for the model.
SS-18 ICBM
Oscillator
Since the thread didn't seem interested in resolving this conundrum, I think I have an answer. Both police and politicians are public citizens who are held accountable for their organizations. If either do not speak out against reprehensible opinions expressed on their speaking platforms of theirs, that is to be taken as tacit approval of said opinions. Private citizens are responsible only for their own opinions, demonstrated by the fact that they don't seem to be calling on those countless people who vote Republican to condemn said politicos.(Shamelessly speaking for someone else) I think he is saying that he's weary of people (in this case Muslims) claiming their "group" to condemn discrimination against them, but then selectively refusing to take any responsibility (blame) for the offensive elements of that same group.
So in this case, Muslims will collectively condemn about Carson's prejudice against them, but if you reply "Well what about terrorism, sharia, etc?" those same people will respond "That's not a reflection of all Muslims" or "Those folks aren't practicing true Islam" etc... and therefore we (the rest of the group) are not accountable for their actions... But you (Republicans) are accountable to us, and we call on you to "respond" or "condemn" Carson's (or Trump or whoever's) discriminatory remarks... and furthermore, we reserve the right to attribute his prejudices onto all of you.
Or maybe that's just my own thinking and I am projecting it onto him
Another example that springs to mind is the "these few bad officers are not representative of police as a whole"excuse. My feeling is when you claim group identity, solidarity, interest, grievance etc, then you have to also take responsibility for the bad parts of your "group" as well.
I think with military, corporate, policing and so on organisations it's a bit different, because there are clear command structures and communication channels open there. In a police station, you have a single, defined person who is paid to be in charge of everyone, including how they interact with the public. If they screw up, it's his fault, because he's paid to put the structures in place that make sure that they don't screw up. The same applies up the chain of command: there's someone watching Supt. Smith to make sure that he is doing his job, and if he doesn't then Ch. Supt. Jones has messed up and can expect an earful from Chief Constable Davies. You can't say that of religious groups, racial groups or any other group that isn't explicitly and deliberately organised.
Edited to remove the Chief Sput.
Edited to remove the Chief Sput.
Sorry, British police ranks (Superintendent and Chief Super) - the rank chain I gave was equivalent to Colonel-Brigadier-Major General in military ranks, or station-area-county in geographical terms.
Since there is no such thing as "public citizens" and "public figures" are basically celebrities, the rank-and-file police officer is neither... so I am going to assume that by "public citizens" you meant "public employees" (which technically only includes politicians who have already been elected to office, but whatever, close enough
).Anyway assuming you meant "public employees"... Then are you saying that an Imam is not accountable for jihadist terrorism, or that the Pope is not accountable for the molestation scandals because they are in private organizations rather than public ones. Would you extend that reasoning to say... the director of Planned Parenthood to say that that because its a private organization she should not be accountable for the actions of other employees? Or is that different somehow cause, you know... religion...
Again, I am not saying fine or imprison people for the actions of others but certainly they can answer or explain how or why their group does or does not condone the actions taken in the name of the group... they can be called upon to disavow the actions and amend their policies to prevent these acts in the future.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Hi Bhavv!
I thought I recognized the poll, because it featured in an earlier discussion I was involved with.
Strange though how you use that poll as support to generalise about Muslims when in the same article it states: By comparison, 35% of French Muslims found homosexual acts to be acceptable.
Anyway, as I said, I recognised the poll, and I remembered someone presenting another poll in that discussion.
Ahem, in character: Oh haha, homophobia rate among British Muslims no longer 100%!
http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2011/06/27/surprise-poll-shows-widespread-muslim-support
So either: Brittish Muslims have progressed immensely forward in their liberal thinking in 2 years, or better not use polls to support generalisations, since polling is notoriously unreliable. (Yes, that means both of them)
Cheerio!
edit: and then I read on and find:
"statistically proven truth"
I'd better keep these facts from my Muslim neighbours then.
HannibalBarka
We are Free
When you say Christians, do you mean Christian Institutions or common christian people as well?
If you mean the common people, than I don't share your definition of responsible. Why would John the Christian, a humble man, who might have been against the Crusade, Inquisition, slavery etc and in all cases never been asked his opinion on the matter not would his opinion would have mattered, would be considered responsible ? Decision within the Church (any Church) is not even a democratic process as in democratic regimes, why should the "masses" in that case be responsible for things they have no say on? Not that I even consider individuals in a Democracy responsible for the action of their government
HannibalBarka
We are Free
well in that case, the problem is therefore ignorance not Islam
not that I agree with the sentence though, as I do think homophobia is part of all Abrahamic religions if not part of almost all cultures
In fact, Homophilia, or to be more accurate homodon'tcarism is indeed a recent phenomenon in most cultures even in the West. It was still seen at best as a deviance disease until recently in France and was outlawed in almost all countries no matter what religion. It start to become less of an issue in societies where individualism has achieved a great deal of advancement i.e. the West mostly.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
Is an Imam in East Lansing in any way "accountable" for 9/11? No.
Did virtually all of them in the US and elsewhere incessantly tell their followers afterwards that this was a great travesty that went directly against the basic precepts of Islam? That these terrorists were misusing their religion to spread hatred and death to innocents which is specifically forbidden? Of course they did.
Do you think they just ignored what occurred, or even worse, gave their followers the impression they agreed with what occurred?
Again: Public Opinion in the Islamic World on Terrorism, al Qaeda, and US Policies
Hardly anybody in even predominately Muslim countries approve of any attacks on civilians, even US citizens.
But their feelings are quite different regarding US naval bases in the Persian Gulf and attacks on US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan:
They also think the US is trying to weaken and divide Islam for some odd reason, along with expand Christianity, maintain control of oil, and even expand Israeli borders:
They also dislike our government and think the US is either disrespectful of the Muslim World or even trying to humiliate it:
SS-18 ICBM
Oscillator
I don't know what the proper term is then for "person accountable for the actions of and represent their organization".Since there is no such thing as "public citizens" and "public figures" are basically celebrities, the rank-and-file police officer is neither... so I am going to assume that by "public citizens" you meant "public employees" (which technically only includes politicians who have already been elected to office, but whatever, close enough
The Pope and the Director are high enough that they do represent their organizations. Priests in churches and PP clerks not involved in the respective scandals are not expected to answer for them.
I'm not gonna post pics and videos of people in the Middle East cheering for 9/11... You remember. That being said... this is a legitimate point that you keep raising so maybe I have not sufficiently acknowledged it... So again, I do recognize that many/a majority of Muslims have done exactly what I have said they are (and AFAICT you say they are not) "accountable" and "responsible" to do... ie condemn, renounce, denounce, disavow etc, many of the heinous practices done in the name of their religion. Apparently the majority of Muslims agree with me and do feel a sense of responsibility for these acts and are thus actively distancing themselves from them.
However, continuing to raise this defense misses the point. Sure the vast majority of Muslims condemn many of the despicable practices/doctrines done/claimed in the name of Islam... BUT NOT homophobia... And that is what got us on this subject. I'm not accusing you of strawmaning here, because I did raise the broader point of "offensive doctrines in general," but the original point was that Muslims are hypocritical to bemoan oppression and discrimination against Muslims, when they by-and-large actively or passively accept discrimination and oppresion of homosexuals by Muslims.
That is what bhav's original point was. I just poked my nose into it and made the larger argument that it was hypocritical for Muslims to condemn Republicans for condemning Muslims for condemning infidels.
"member"
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
http://www.dawn.com/news/916034/muslim-mayor-in-homophobic-dutch-suburb-supports-gays
http://islamandhomosexuality.com/
If you don't look, you never see anything to contradict your preconcieved notions.
http://islamandhomosexuality.com/
If you don't look, you never see anything to contradict your preconcieved notions.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
That is good because I think it would be meaningless in the context of those statistics. Of course, there were a handful who did so. Terrorists do clearly have their supporters. But what does that mean except to Fox News and others trying to rationalize their hatred of Muslims?
Only it is clearly the vast overwhelming majority of those polled except in Palestine. For some odd reason, a quarter of the population feels differently. Do you think it might have something to do with the number of their civilians killed by our closest friends and allies, the Israelis, without hardly any negative Security Council resolutions at all. That this is directly due to the US government vetoing those resolutions against hundreds of similarly reprehensible atrocities nearly every single time they have been raised dating nearly back to the creation of Israel?
So that makes them similar to many Republicans and many other Christians?
There is indeed a great deal of intolerance still in this world, and much of it comes from the more backward countries which are predominately Muslim. But trying to blame Islam is overlooking the fact that many of them are Christians and other religions. Many of them are even atheists in Russia, China, and elsewhere where human rights are still frequently more a dream than a reality.
But I agree it is unsettling that so many Muslims in countries like the UK seem to exhibit homophobic tendencies, at least according to that one poll that is so frequently cited by those who hate Muslims. I completely agree that far more religious leaders in particular should be speaking out and trying to directly stop it.
But then again, it wasn't all that long ago that the vast majority of Americans agreed with the Defense of Marriage Act passed by Congress prohibiting homosexual marriage.
Do many Catholic priests and Protestant ministers tell their congregations to stop using the Bible to discriminate against homosexuals?
You mentioned terrorism on page one:
And i'm pretty sure you have also mentioned it in this "responsible" context before, if not in this particular thread.
Either way, I don't think it hurts to continue to cite these statistics in any of these Islamophobia threads. They still seem to be completely ignored by so many of the posters in this forum.
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Muslim's condemn Carson's prejudice.
The Reply: Condemning muslims about terrorism.
One of those targets a specific individual who is indeed responsible for his actions, the other targets a large group who is not responsible for the actions of others in that group.
So there's that.
Now, where did you get the sentiment: "you (Republicans) are accountable to us, and we call on you to "respond" or "condemn" Carson's (or Trump or whoever's) discriminatory remarks... and furthermore, we reserve the right to attribute his prejudices onto all of you." from?
The one thing I can see that would be applicable is not voting for the dude.Has there been a response from the other Republican candidates to Carson's remark? In that case it's quite easy to show there are differing opinions about the matter within the Republican's hopefulls. As it's quite easy to do so with regard to muslims.
... 'People who hate Muslims'.
What about ...
'People that Muslims hate' - All non muslims and gays.
What exactly am I supposed to like about Muslims / Islam? The bit where they cover their women up and don't let them go outside? Or the bit where they throw acid at girls faces for going to school? Oh, maybe the bit where they execute apostates and gays? Or maybe the bit where an elderly disabled woman was sentenced to 100 lashes for having two unrelated men deliver her food shopping for her?
What about ...
'People that Muslims hate' - All non muslims and gays.
What exactly am I supposed to like about Muslims / Islam? The bit where they cover their women up and don't let them go outside? Or the bit where they throw acid at girls faces for going to school? Oh, maybe the bit where they execute apostates and gays? Or maybe the bit where an elderly disabled woman was sentenced to 100 lashes for having two unrelated men deliver her food shopping for her?
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
How about the "bit" where they are all characterized as being exactly the same, as though they are part of a "borg", when they clearly are not.
Muslims have great reason to fear rampant Islamophobia in the West. Of course, they already know this after having to face discrimination and persecution on a regular basis, especially since 9/11.
Muslims have great reason to fear rampant Islamophobia in the West. Of course, they already know this after having to face discrimination and persecution on a regular basis, especially since 9/11.
