American Universities will now be all white and Asian

[TheMeInTeam]

Not solved, but certainly significantly improved. The change in minority representation within the UC system (and at UC Berkeley in particular) before and after the ban on Affirmative Action policies was quite dramatic, to throw out a quick example I'm familiar with.

How has this worsened/improved k-12 education or relative distributions of wealth? You've not posted evidence of discrimination, other than that when you use affirmative action you have more people of the favored group than if you don't.

I admit I find the GPA inflation distasteful. I've been on both sides of it as it was thing even when I was in high school.

 

[Yeekim]

School quality in the US is overwhelmingly dictated by how wealthy the areas served by a school district are which is also strongly correlated to race.
Affirmative action is meant to help normalize outputs of our socioeconomic system such that everyone has a chance to attend university.

And in that regard, it is definitely better than nothing.
But wouldn't you agree that getting rid of the system where school education is funded by property taxes and thereby normalizing the socioeconomic system, rather than merely its outputs, would be far superior solution?
It might not be politically feasible, but we're just speaking theoretically here, aren't we?

 

[Lexicus]

But wouldn't you agree that getting rid of the system where school education is funded by property taxes and thereby normalizing the socioeconomic system, rather than merely its outputs, would be far superior solution?
It might not be politically feasible, but we're just speaking theoretically here, aren't we?

It would be a more far-reaching solution, certainly. And it's something I've been saying we should do for a long time.

 

[pippenainteasy]

Why Asians are so over-represented in top US universities, and whites somewhat under-represented? Legacy of Asian Supremacy?

Asians and Jews are over-represented. We live in a cause and effect universe yes? What were Chinese and Jewish caste systems like the past? Stratified based on scholarship/scholastic achievement. Whereas Europe in general was a warrior class caste system. Not much of a surprise that whites are underrepresented then, right?

 

[Archbob]

Asians and Jews are over-represented. We live in a cause and effect universe yes? What were Chinese and Jewish caste systems like the past? Stratified based on scholarship/scholastic achievement. Whereas Europe in general was a warrior culture caste system. Not much of a surprise that whites are underrepresented then, right?

So what your saying is that whites should really be advocating a system where the ones that survive a yearly Mortal Kombat tournament rises to the top right?

 

[pippenainteasy]

So what your saying is that whites should really be advocating a system where the ones that survive a yearly Mortal Kombat tournament rises to the top right?

You have a very strange idea about European history. Toureys were rarely intentional fights to the death, more like an elaborate ritual to propagate the honor culture of the nobility. Otherwise our modern western athletics culture would not have carried these competition norms over and developed concepts like sportsmanship.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I'm not putting the onus on colleges. I'm pointing out that they can't do anything about who their best applicants are. If you want the actual merit of the applicants to be distributed differently, you'd have to alter the conditions for students prior to the application process. However, altering the pre-college process is outside the scope of a thread about admissions policies for colleges.

I didn't say you were, I meant affirmative action, or just any scheme in general, that is aimed at balancing out the education system so that it's fair for all, but which only comes into effect at age 18.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Leave just enough room so that you can both dismiss the premise but safely pearl clutch if you get called out on a racist viewpoint. Clever.

There wasn't enough information in the hypthetical posed to answer the question. "Don't know" was the only reasonable answer to it.

 

[metalhead]

Over half of the applications received having literally the perfect score attainable suggests there is still plenty of GPA inflation going on. I suspect this is not what happens if you remove AP/honors inflation given that GPA is predictive of grades in college right now, and it would not be if everyone had the same grades.

Is there a reason you're fixated on "grades in college" as the only measure by which we ought to judge an applicant's worth to a university?

 

[schlaufuchs]

Whereas Europe in general was a warrior class caste system.

lol, nope!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is there a reason you're fixated on "grades in college" as the only measure by which we ought to judge an applicant's worth to a university?

It's a readily available objective measure. If you have other objective measures that can determine how well a selected student performs compared to other selected students, they could also be valid.

Though if we're talking my personal feelings on the matter, the entire system is best gutted and replaced by a far more cost effective way to provide information and test knowledge and application of information. You can admit just about anybody if you're not constrained by physical space, faculty manpower, and excess administrative manpower, and if they try they can prove their knowledge for less money. A lot less.

The goal is to have people prove they have requisite skills to do jobs, not spend 10'000's of dollars on fluff beyond that. While this still won't fix the root cause of k-12 disparity unless you apply it to those too, at least affirmative action won't be relevant to applications for learning college material under such a model.

 

[metalhead]

It's a readily available objective measure. If you have other objective measures that can determine how well a selected student performs compared to other selected students, they could also be valid.

Is your view of college that students' grades are the only thing of value they produce while there?

Why are objective measures the only valid ones?

 

[Lexicus]

Is your view of college that students' grades are the only thing of value they produce while there?

Why are objective measures the only valid ones?

That question's already been answered:

The goal is to have people prove they have requisite skills to do jobs, not spend 10'000's of dollars on fluff beyond that.

 

[Synobun]

That question's already been answered:

It sounds like TMIT's ideal college environment is just a 4-year internship at a job placement that you may or may not have had a say in picking.

 

[metalhead]

If you think the point of college is "job skills," then you don't understand the point of college.

I'd be interested in seeing the studies that correlate college GPA to "amount of job skills obtained" though if that's what we're working towards here.

 

[Lexicus]

If you think the point of college is "job skills," then you don't understand the point of college.

This isn't quite accurate. He just understand the point of college as entirely subordinated to the needs of capital. I think he's wrong, but his vision of what college should be is winning.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It sounds like TMIT's ideal college environment is just a 4-year internship at a job placement that you may or may not have had a say in picking.

For most positions, you don't need 4 years or even close. For technical positions which need a lot of practice/skill to avoid people dying, sure. For most things? No.

I see no reason people can't pick what information to learn.

I'd be interested in seeing the studies that correlate college GPA to "amount of job skills obtained" though if that's what we're working towards here.

It wouldn't surprise me if the correlation were weak. If it is, it's an indictment of the present model. Knowledge and application skill are the value allegedly being added. If a numerical representation of that value is not accurate, you don't have an accurate representation of value and indeed it's dubious how much value is there.

 

[Synobun]

I see no reason people can't pick what information to learn.

o b j e c t i v e m e a s u r e s, of course.

 

[metalhead]

It wouldn't surprise me if the correlation were weak. If it is, it's an indictment of the present model. Knowledge and application skill are the value allegedly being added. If a numerical representation of that value is not accurate, you don't have an accurate representation of value and indeed it's dubious how much value is there.

You still haven't explained why you believe objective measurements are the only valid kind. Your conclusion seems to rest on the premise that something can only be validated through objective measurement, and if such is not possible than the thing is not valid.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

o b j e c t i v e m e a s u r e s, of course.

Seems you're a bit confused about what to use when.

You wouldn't reasonably pick to learn how to manufacture rocket fuel if you're going into accounting, but there's no reason someone couldn't attempt to prove knowledge for either.

You still haven't explained why you believe objective measurements are the only valid kind. Your conclusion seems to rest on the premise that something can only be validated through objective measurement, and if such is not possible than the thing is not valid.

Objective measures are easier to control. You can also use standardized subjective measures, and in some cases doing so would be necessary (evaluation of practical skill immediately comes to mind). The less of this the better, if we're trying to minimize bias.