An intellctual challange about one of the key issues of mankind

[warpus]

Why do people have a problem with GOD? If God was all of the energy, but allowed enough darkness/lack of energy for humanity to survive in, why would mankind prefer there be no God. Could man really do a better job in "holding" the universe together? Could Lucifer even do a better job than we can?

It'd be cool if God existed, and I'd probably have no problem with him/her/it, but it doesn't look like such a thing exists, so.. it's not like I have a problem with God or whatever and neither have most of the other atheists or agnostics

 

[timtofly]

It'd be cool if God existed, and I'd probably have no problem with him/her/it, but it doesn't look like such a thing exists, so.. it's not like I have a problem with God or whatever and neither have most of the other atheists or agnostics

So: you do not think that God is energy, or you have no problem relating energy to God?

I think that it would be cool if energy existed. Just think of all the things we could do with it. Can we even manipulate energy? We have broken down energy into physical "parts" that we can see and observe. If we broke God down into parts, would we re-act the same way to God as we do to energy?

 

[warpus]

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

So: you do not think that God is energy, or you have no problem relating energy to God?

I think that it would be cool if energy existed. Just think of all the things we could do with it. Can we even manipulate energy? We have broken down energy into physical "parts" that we can see and observe. If we broke God down into parts, would we re-act the same way to God as we do to energy?

Hmm


Link to video.

 

[peter grimes]

Just think of all the things we could do with it. Can we even manipulate energy?

I'm going to stay away from the notoriously difficult problem of precisely defining energy and stick to what I know:
Yes, we do things with energy all the time. I'm pretty sure you know this. We manipulate and transform energy from one kind to another all the time as well. I'm pretty sure you know this too.

We use the stored solar energy from millions of years of photosynthesis when we release energy from chemical bonds into heat energy every time we start our car.

We use the energy stored in the nucleus of atoms when we derive power from a nuclear plant.

Our body itself is riding a cascade of energy transformations that ultimately traces back to the sun as well. And when we die the energy bound up in the molecular bonds of our cellular atoms will be used by funghi and bacteria and invertebrates to continue the cascade.

Of course we manipulate energy.

 

[Traitorfish]

"common ground"

The sun consumes and produces energy, but it is a finite perpetual energy producer. Space is both dark and light at the same time. Light is energy but it is effected by gravity. What is time? Does time determine how the sun functions? Would we be able to exist if all of the energy in the universe was "light". Is the darkness just less "light" energy. Or energy that does not travel very fast. What does it even mean to travel fast, if there is no time involved?

If all energy moved as fast as it did near the sun, would time stop and every thing be so "light" even if it did not consume a human, would a human survive in that much light/energy?

Why do people have a problem with GOD? If God was all of the energy, but allowed enough darkness/lack of energy for humanity to survive in, why would mankind prefer there be no God. Could man really do a better job in "holding" the universe together? Could Lucifer even do a better job than we can?

"My knowledge of astronomical physics is limited, ergo, god exists?"

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You'd better watch out, you'd better beware. Albert said E = mc².

And he was right...

 

[FredLC]

I want to see if I understand the statement correctly, so I'll try to re-word it:

It is not possible to know - even in principle - the nature of any possible god

Is that correct?

I'm glad you asked, 'cause I really did not get the question and was wandering if it had to do with english not being my mother language. Now I can be reassured that there were issues with the formulation.

Actually, you've just stated what is basically my main reason for being atheist (and not agnostic). I almost never bring it up on CFC, because I think of it as too hard to properly communicate.

Yes, a god could be knowable. But you present very good evidence that the subjective belief that you 'know god' can be gained through entirely naturalistic mechanisms that lead to deception. In other words, a human can be convinced that they know a god personally, even if it was entirely not true.

This means that there's fundamentally no mechanism by which you can be certain that you're communing with a god, because the delusion of 'communing with god' is always an alternate idea.

This reasoning, more than anything, is why I fundamentally believe that there's no God.

Isn't that akin to phyrronic skepticism? If you want to go that road, why to believe at anything at all? Anything could be just something falsely communicated...

Regards .

 

[berkut]

There is no way to know or to have a shot at what is likely how a potential God is or other forms of potential supreme beings are

I dissagre, it's precisely our ability to reason that alows us to understant such an abstract being as god. We do that by inference from values already observed. Bet you can't count up to infinite but you're still capable of calculating 1/oo

 

[timtofly]

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

I am talking about God.

"My knowledge of astronomical physics is limited, ergo, god exists?"

God exist despite your limited knowledge.


Common ground here is energy. You'all (well most of you) stake your life on energy and it's ability to sustain life. Would you stop "trusting" it if you came to the realization that it was actually God? Would science fall apart if this were true?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Energy was well explained by Einstein. Hence, nuclear bombs.

 

[FredLC]

Energy was well explained by Einstein. Hence, nuclear bombs.

It's not very well known that Einstein, a critic of quantum physics, actually published one of the founding papers of that discipline (he actually got a Nobel Prize for that, not for his relativity theories). In that sense, he helped explaining how energy flows.

But I daresay that his contribution to defining energy was not particularly relevant...

Regards ,

 

[Traitorfish]

God exist despite your limited knowledge.

True, if he exists then it is regardless of whether or not I am personally of aware of this. That doesn't really address the question of how I could come into such knowledge, though, which was really what this thread is meant to be about.

Common ground here is energy. You'all (well most of you) stake your life on energy and it's ability to sustain life. Would you stop "trusting" it if you came to the realization that it was actually God? Would science fall apart if this were true?

Is this simply a hypothetical, or are you actually suggesting that energy and God are somehow related? If so, in what manner, and on what grounds are you making the claim?

 

[uppi]

I'll have a go at all these questions about light and energy, let's see:

The sun consumes and produces energy, but it is a finite perpetual energy producer.

"Finite perpetual"? What is that even supposed to mean?

Space is both dark and light at the same time.

Space by itself is quite dark. Light is the thing that is, well, light.

Light is energy but it is effected by gravity.

Yes, that is the point of General Relativity, but I don't get your point.

What is time?

A quantity we use to describe our universe.

Does time determine how the sun functions?

Yes. It is a dissipative system.

Would we be able to exist if all of the energy in the universe was "light".

No, but once it was.

Is the darkness just less "light" energy.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Or energy that does not travel very fast.

Energy that does not travel fast is usually dark, but that does not meant it is equivalent with darkness. After all the sun does not travel very fast.

What does it even mean to travel fast, if there is no time involved?

Nothing, as speed is defined as the time derivative of location, it makes no sense without time

If all energy moved as fast as it did near the sun, would time stop and every thing be so "light" even if it did not consume a human, would a human survive in that much light/energy?

No, there is not a tiny bit of sense in this question.

Why do people have a problem with GOD? If God was all of the energy, but allowed enough darkness/lack of energy for humanity to survive in, why would mankind prefer there be no God. Could man really do a better job in "holding" the universe together? Could Lucifer even do a better job than we can?

I don't follow. Your ramblings of energy sound awfully like those of an esoteric.

I think that it would be cool if energy existed. Just think of all the things we could do with it.

Yes, if energy existed we could use it to drive cars, launch rockets and post on CFC! Think of the possibilities!

Can we even manipulate energy?

You said, light is energy and manipulating light is my job. So I don't know about you, but I certainly can.

 

[timtofly]

True, if he exists then it is regardless of whether or not I am personally of aware of this. That doesn't really address the question of how I could come into such knowledge, though, which was really what this thread is meant to be about.

If God is "what makes up energy" would that really effect science?

Is this simply a hypothetical, or are you actually suggesting that energy and God are somehow related? If so, in what manner, and on what grounds are you making the claim?

If light was the third created thing, then it could not be God, if God said let myself be, then no one would understand what that was up until Einstein. God is light, and He did not creat it, but allowed it/Himself to spread through the known universe. He infused Himself into nothingness/darkness. Thus light and darkness happened. God was the energy that let that happen.

I'll have a go at all these questions about light and energy, let's see:


"Finite perpetual"? What is that even supposed to mean?

The sun remains a "constant" but is not guaranteed.

Space by itself is quite dark. Light is the thing that is, well, light.

Depending on one's perspective, however light/energy is travelling through space.

Yes, that is the point of General Relativity, but I don't get your point.

Why can gravity effect light? I had no point though, although gravity is an interesting concept. Overcoming gravity is called levitation or the concept of manipulating energy and even the ability to realease light from the hold that gravity has on it.

A quantity we use to describe our universe.

Yes. It is a dissipative system.

No, but once it was.

Darkness is the absence of light.

Hypothetical: Could we have existed as energy beings without the need for time?

Energy that does not travel fast is usually dark, but that does not meant it is equivalent with darkness. After all the sun does not travel very fast.

Nothing, as speed is defined as the time derivative of location, it makes no sense without time

No, there is not a tiny bit of sense in this question.

Darkness is the lack of energy, but enough to give it the name "dark matter". The sun is a "mass of energy" in motion, not slow moving energy

I don't follow. Your ramblings of energy sound awfully like those of an esoteric.

They had knowledge that we no longer have today?

Yes, if energy existed we could use it to drive cars, launch rockets and post on CFC! Think of the possibilities!


You said, light is energy and manipulating light is my job. So I don't know about you, but I certainly can.

You are closer to God than you want to admit? A new twist on free will?

I am technically just trying to find common ground on how God can be described and how God relates to mankind.

Lucifer and his diamonds in the sky is a mind bender? Maybe he thought that his manipulations with the energy in ones brain could offer man a better life than God could?

I probably just think too much, but where would we be if we lost the ability to think and process information?

 

[warpus]

If God is "what makes up energy" would that really effect science?



If light was the third created thing, then it could not be God, if God said let myself be, then no one would understand what that was up until Einstein. God is light, and He did not creat it, but allowed it/Himself to spread through the known universe. He infused Himself into nothingness/darkness. Thus light and darkness happened. God was the energy that let that happen.



I am technically just trying to find common ground on how God can be described and how God relates to mankind.

Lucifer and his diamonds in the sky is a mind bender? Maybe he thought that his manipulations with the energy in ones brain could offer man a better life than God could?

[quoet=timtofly]I probably just think too much, but where would we be if we lost the ability to think and process information?

While I applaud your information processing attempts (thinking is good, etc.), your conclusions appear random and inconsistent.

 

[timtofly]

While I applaud your information processing attempts (thinking is good, etc.), your conclusions appear random and inconsistent.

Athiest do not want God or religion in their science.

If God was energy, would that ruin science like religion has been claimed to do?

It clearly says that God created. Then He said let there be. To Moses, He was I Am. Jesus said before Abraham was, I Am. God is being not just a personification.

Luci in the sky is said to be LSD. If satan and a third of the stars were bodies of light that could also manipulate energy, would satan not have the right to oppose God in some form?

I am taking instances that are facts to me and give them to you. You can deny those facts or accept them. I also can only relate what comes to my mind at any given moment.

Some people call thoughts delusions, but it is in this process of the brain (that can also be the soul) that really is the only way people relate to others and even to God. And it is energy. The Great Flood was said to be the result of man's imagination which was only evil continually. Actions are not what really determine a person, since thoughts produce actions, not the other way around. If you can control how a person thinks, you can control his actions and mathematically/statistically do so predictively. Thoughts and words, are more traumatic than actions.

 

[warpus]

Athiest do not want God or religion in their science.

If God was energy, would that ruin science like religion has been claimed to do?

It would ruin religion because we have formulas that explain how different types of energy behave.

Not much of a God if you can predict what he's going to do using mathematical formulas..

I didn't understand the rest of your post because it was crazy.

 

[timtofly]

It would ruin religion because we have formulas that explain how different types of energy behave.

Not much of a God if you can predict what he's going to do using mathematical formulas..

I didn't understand the rest of your post because it was crazy.

I will let you have the last word, but we cannot even predict the weather to a science yet, so predicting God is a long way off.

My statement about thoughts are crazy, yet your limiting God to the ability of science is also crazy?

You keep avoiding my question though, If God was energy, would it ruin science? There are a lot of people who like to delusion themselves with "a force". If you can figure out how to exist without energy, then maybe you have figured out God.

 

[Berzerker]

There is no way to know or to have a shot at what is likely how a potential God is or other forms of potential supreme beings are - feel free to disagree with those points - but I assure you that you will not be able to hold such disagreements without engaging in blatant intellectually dishonesty or hubris.
That is my challenge.

Evolution tells me these superior beings will appear much like us, and based on my reading of religious texts, I find any claim of moral superiority debatable...