An update from Firaxis Games regarding Beyond Earth feedback

[Cyon]

They could at least communicate with us...

 

[ImperialGuard]

I will say that it's been 2 weeks and still no patch which surprises me. The only precedent schedule we can go on is for Civ V and if I recall correctly, it had a patch 1 week after release.

It's been 2 weeks since the release, but even before that, the game code had to be frozen for awhile ... not sure what they've been doing since the code was frozen ... (other than cranking up the marketing)

Unless they thought that BE was good ... it didn't take the entire community to realize all the issues with the game ... I can't believe they'd be that oblivious

Hopefully they've been working on a balance patch for awhile now ... and we'll get it sooner rather than later

 

[Agent_TBC]

CivBE needs massive balance patching, obviously. But I don't think its in any worse shape than CivV was at launch. That's more of an indictment of CivV's state at launch than an endorsement of CivBE's obviously.

My only point of concern is that it isn't obvious to me that CivBE will receive the same level of support over the same length of time than CivV did. I hope Firaxis doesn't let us down. They mostly haven't in the past so here's hoping.

 

[Mozzington]

It is disappointing that they could not meet my deadline.

 

[Natura]

CivBE needs massive balance patching, obviously. But I don't think its in any worse shape than CivV was at launch. That's more of an indictment of CivV's state at launch than an endorsement of CivBE's obviously.

My only point of concern is that it isn't obvious to me that CivBE will receive the same level of support over the same length of time than CivV did. I hope Firaxis doesn't let us down. They mostly haven't in the past so here's hoping.

I do find it somewhat ironic that history is repeating itself. ICS was the best strategy when Civ V released, when people worked out the happiness equations, and ICS is the best strategy in BE, thanks to trade routes. Honour was useless when Civ V released, Might is useless now. Maritime City States were OP at Civ V release, internal trade routes are OP in BE. Victory conditions were lackluster and boring at Civ V release (Utopia project anyone?), Victory conditions are lackluster and boring in BE.

What really showcases the utter laziness that has gone into BE is that the issues that were later corrected in Civ V with patches and expansions are present in the base BE product. Which means that when they ported over the Civ V code, they didn't even bother to port over the fixes they'd done in that game. They seemingly learned nothing from all those years of development.

 

[m15a]

I do find it somewhat ironic that history is repeating itself. ICS was the best strategy when Civ V released, when people worked out the happiness equations, and ICS is the best strategy in BE, thanks to trade routes. Honour was useless when Civ V released, Might is useless now. Maritime City States were OP at Civ V release, internal trade routes are OP in BE. Victory conditions were lackluster and boring at Civ V release (Utopia project anyone?), Victory conditions are lackluster and boring in BE.

What really showcases the utter laziness that has gone into BE is that the issues that were later corrected in Civ V with patches and expansions are present in the base BE product. Which means that when they ported over the Civ V code, they didn't even bother to port over the fixes they'd done in that game. They seemingly learned nothing from all those years of development.

All the issues you listed are with new systems, except the trade routes thing which isn't even the same problem. They couldn't have possibly "ported" over those "fixes"* from BNW. You can argue they should have learned from their mistakes, but that's a design issue, not a (software) development issue.**

* Fixes in quote because not everyone prefers the optimal "tall" play of Civ V. Also, many people don't think that the Honor tree was ever fixed in Civ V.

** Not saying there *aren't* software issues. But they aren't the ones you listed.

 

[Bandobras Took]

What really showcases the utter laziness that has gone into BE is that the issues that were later corrected in Civ V with patches and expansions are present in the base BE product. Which means that when they ported over the Civ V code, they didn't even bother to port over the fixes they'd done in that game. They seemingly learned nothing from all those years of development.

It depends on when they grabbed the code to start developing. Once they start altering, there's a point at which they can't just copy over code, because references do not exist. The thing that CiVanilla fixed was per-city happiness.

If I had to guess, they used the earliest stages of BNW as their base to build BE. BNW went one way, but it was essentially refinement (for example, removing gold yields from riverside to help normalize starting locations). BE went another way, but it was not refinement, but redefinition. My hunch is that many of the positive balance things from BNW are going to end up in the first major balance patch for the game, since they actually have the development capacity once again to not only scavenge code but also to rewrite it for the BE engine.

 

[CraigMak]

Here are some balance suggestions that should make huge leaps and bounds towards getting this game balanced and playable.

#1 Affinity is too important to get for free. Quests and Progenitor Ruins should not give free affinity points. It's just too ABSURD! 2 Free Affinity can put you 30 - 40 turns ahead of the guy next to you in terms of military.

#2 The Slavs are mega OP and need to be fixed. Slingshotting to anything including turn 42 battle suits is just bad, bad game design. Make it a set number of beakers or techs of a certain tier. ANY tech is just too much.

#3 Building Quests are too random and very strong. They need to consistently pop up or be removed completely. Please don't make this game a crap shoot.

#4 Prosperity is currently too strong, growth, a free settler, free worker, and loads of health is too much. The settler needs to be moved farther down the tree otherwise it is the only viable virtue option to start the game.

#4 Starting with Artists is too strong. Starting with +2 culture is so strong that all the other choices are null and void. You just get this one every time.

#5 Stations operate in a horrible mechanic. Randomly dropping and trolling your expansion locations is a very bad mechanic. You should be able to choose where they plant to some degree. Turning them off should be an option. Trading with them is currently too weak compared to your own cities. They do nothing but take your expansions and require killing.

#6 Get rid of gold from rivers OR make every player start on a river every time guaranteed. This is too luck based. Not having a river will put you at a severe disadvantage compared to some one with a river.

#7 The aliens need to be fixed, they need to be more aggressive. Currently they don't even attack workers and don't attack settlers 50% of the time. They should attack and pillage just like barbs did. Right now they are just a minor annoyance.

#8 Titanium is too strong. It needs to be toned down. +5 hammers is too much. Tectonic scanner is currently OP because titanium is OP.

#9 Crash sites and derelict settlements are too strong, loads of culture, 80 hammers etc.. is too much. Tone this luck based stuff down considerably. Culture pods, science pods and satellite pods are also a bit too strong. Making the game less luck based is always the way to go.

#10 Internal trade routes are too strong, way too strong. Naval trade routes take it to a new level of absurdity. Tone these both down and bring naval trade routes closer to land based ones in their yields. The naval ones even seem to be safer IMO.

#11 The hammer cost of marines and gunners compared to rangers and soldiers is way too far off. Were talking double the hammers for a unit that's only slightly better. At the moment getting early affinity can actually leave you at a disadvantage if you don't have units ready to upgrade.

#12 The affinity unique units are way too strong and cost too little hammers compared to normal units. This is just crazy. It is A no brainer that these need toned down, especially battle suits.

#13 Purity is too strong compared to the other affinities. The teir 1 ability is by far the best and battle suits are stronger as well as easier to field because titanium is always abundant.

#14 Siege worms are way too strong and random. They are currently like random natural disasters. Isn't this a strategy game and not a roll of the dice type of game? At least let us turn these things off for skill based games.

#15 The health system needs to be entirely revamped. Going negative health currently barely has any negative side effects. There should be steeper growth penalties for going negative. Going past -10 should be very bad for you.

#16 There needs to be some benefits of going tall. Currently the strategy every single game is to make as many cities as possible, land grab and get up trade routes. This is not strategy, it's the same thing every time regardless of your surroundings. There should be some buildings that give you more science for having more citizens in your city or something similar to that. Going tall currently has zero advantages what so ever.

#17 Africa is total crap because the ability is void as soon as you go negative in health. 10% growth is just really weak in the first place. African Federation needs re-worked.

#18 Knowledge's first virtue is too weak for the same reason that Africa is too weak. It is void as soon as you go negative health. This needs reworked. Knowledge in general is weak and good only as a support tree, not a starting tree.

#19 Settling on a desert should not completely nerf your city. Settling on a hill should not give you less food and hammers total than plains or grassland. Come on. Make hills 2 food 3 hammers or something.

#20 If you are going to make institutes give a free tech then don't put them in the direct path of any one affinitie's unique unit. These things make slingshotting to battle suits way too easy. The free tech building should be in a neutral location on the web.

#21 Ectogenesis pod is a bit too strong. This is like getting Civil Service and Fertilizer from Civ 5 wrapped up in one and way early in the game. It's too good. Many of the other wonders are way too bad. Let's make most of them a bit more useful.

This is all that I can think of for now. Making these changes would drastically improve the game In my opinion.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Here are some balance suggestions that should make huge leaps and bounds towards getting this game balanced and playable.

*snip*

I agree with most of what you said (and there's more besides) except for your complaints about randomness - but that's because I'm not a Deity level Civ player. Its a trait I've noticed in high level Civ players - Civ is a mathematical equation to them, not a game. I like the randomness, I like the element of chance. The RNG giveth, and the RNG taketh away.

Regarding (9), you should try some of the exoplanets maps. They have a dearth of ruins, crash site etc. In fact, I haven't had to use my explorer once (another balancing issue....)

 

[player1 fanatic]

In non-mp environment randomness enhances the gameplay. It adds flavor and challenge by making you adapt to current situation.

 

[Haggbart]

I agree with most of what you said (and there's more besides) except for your complaints about randomness - but that's because I'm not a Deity level Civ player. Its a trait I've noticed in high level Civ players - Civ is a mathematical equation to them, not a game. I like the randomness, I like the element of chance. The RNG giveth, and the RNG taketh away.

Regarding (9), you should try some of the exoplanets maps. They have a dearth of ruins, crash site etc. In fact, I haven't had to use my explorer once (another balancing issue....)

That is because strategy games are based on mathematic equations. And to understand what's under the hood makes you better at playing the game. I do understand that a lot of people don't play like that, but can't the game be suited to both tastes?

I'm not saying randomness should be excluded, mind you. However, the randomness of two progenitor ruins that gave me a sub 200 turns victory TWICE doesn't sit well with me. It's a randomness that shave 50+ turns of the victory. Just because I got lucky. If they want to keep such luck based factors in the game, at least make it impossible to get them on the hardest dif. levels (that would not be a first btw, getting techs from goody huts and barb camps was much rarer on higher dif. levels in Civ4/CiV)

So the most important luck-based stuff to remove is the kind of stuff that makes a huge impact on victories. Also things like level 4 units and tech slingshots that just make you do the same strategy over and over because it's always most effective.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You definitely shouldn't be able to get 2 parts of the signal from progenitor ruins.

What I would like to see is something more like
To get 1 part of the signal you have to investigate ?5? progenitor ruins

As for affinity being too powerful to get for free, what they probably need to do is weaken the effect of affinity (basically make the units not scale up Quite so much)

so Infantry don't go 10-14-24-48, but instead go 10-14-22-35
and the level 4 would be ~25-30 strength... and final affinity units would have strengths ~50-60 instead of 100-120
[would help keep aliens better too]
..you still get nice bonuses from the perks

 

[Haggbart]

You definitely shouldn't be able to get 2 parts of the signal from progenitor ruins.

What I would like to see is something more like
To get 1 part of the signal you have to investigate ?5? progenitor ruins

As for affinity being too powerful to get for free, what they probably need to do is weaken the effect of affinity (basically make the units not scale up Quite so much)

so Infantry don't go 10-14-24-48, but instead go 10-14-22-35
and the level 4 would be ~25-30 strength... and final affinity units would have strengths ~50-60 instead of 100-120
[would help keep aliens better too]
..you still get nice bonuses from the perks

Agree with this. Also not having the victory wonder available at 13 affinity, but rather at 15-16 would help a lot.

 

[Strategist83]

I do find it somewhat ironic that history is repeating itself. ICS was the best strategy when Civ V released, when people worked out the happiness equations, and ICS is the best strategy in BE, thanks to trade routes. Honour was useless when Civ V released, Might is useless now. Maritime City States were OP at Civ V release, internal trade routes are OP in BE. Victory conditions were lackluster and boring at Civ V release (Utopia project anyone?), Victory conditions are lackluster and boring in BE.

What really showcases the utter laziness that has gone into BE is that the issues that were later corrected in Civ V with patches and expansions are present in the base BE product. Which means that when they ported over the Civ V code, they didn't even bother to port over the fixes they'd done in that game. They seemingly learned nothing from all those years of development.

Sadly, this is spot-on.

For my part, I'm done supporting Firaxis. I've held a high regard of them, mostly thanks to Civ IV & SMAC, without a doubt some of the finest strategy games ever produced (I think Civ V ended up being decent if never great, as well, mostly through the support of the expensive expansion packs and the far, far too late and far between patches). With BE I feel Firaxis has shown they don't care about the quality of the products they sell at all. As you say, BE is a product showcasing utter laziness. Frankly, I think it's decidedly disrespectful selling a product like this - but it's made worse by the fact Firaxis is a major name and sells their games numbering in the millions of copies sold and topping the Steam charts for months. How can you be selling the same game one more time and make all the same mistakes as when that was released while totally ignoring the obvious issues that carried over from that former game (AI!)? Yes indeed - lazy and utterly disrespectful. Hopefully this will be where the line in the sand is drawn and people start retracting support and stop purchasing. This is not a behaviour that needs rewarding.

Firaxis/2K, you can start redeeming yourself by putting out a major patch immediately - you know, the patch that you should have had ready day 0. Having already failed that, you can at least make it known that you are sorry about the situation and have a patch in the works.

That's it from me; I'm done venting now. And done buying.

 

[CraigMak]

In non-mp environment randomness enhances the gameplay. It adds flavor and challenge by making you adapt to current situation.

The thing is that most of the randomness in this game doesn't make you adapt to anything. It's just massive free bonuses that you may or may not get. What you had to adapt to in Civ 5 was your land or barb harassment . Well, trade routes make land almost inconsequential due to their power.

In Civ 5 your surroundings determined your tech order, whether you went liberty, tradition or some mix, your pantheon, your build order. Here nothing matters, just make as many cities as possible and get as many trade routes as possible.

Also spam explorers every game to get massive OP free stuff. It's like being Spain every game. Explore = win, not skill.

 

[Gamewizard]

Firaxis/2K, you can start redeeming yourself by putting out a major patch immediately - you know, the patch that you should have had ready day 0. Having already failed that, you can at least make it known that you are sorry about the situation and have a patch in the works.

There is a patch in the works, hence this thread.

Seriously people, there are already many mods that address most of the balance issues. Unless you are waiting for a fix that prevents you from playing the game at all, just browse through the workshop and enjoy a good game of Civ.

 

[3 EMS]

I think that there are too many layers of bonuses to begin with. The Virtue tree, buildings, quests, and expeditions. Buildings, with their related quests, and expeditions are enough to supply the needed bonuses. I would like to see culture go back to determining land ownership. For that to be its sole purpose. The virtue tree is redundant. Firaxis should balance health with bonuses from just the buildings with miner bonuses stemming from buildings and expeditions. That would make the balancing less complicated and remove some redundancy from the game.

Right now, a person can settle a city wherever he wants. It doesn't matter if the city has no resources and/or has low yield tiles. That is because of trade routes. That city can be fed to the point of being the fastest growing and most productive one in a persons settlement. Perhaps if trade routes were rebalance so that the sending city received nothing back or lost resources, then a person would have to think about using them in that manner. A little more thought would be needed. He could still found a poor city but it would cost him. To feed that poor city some other better cities would lose out some.

 

[CraigMak]

There is a patch in the works, hence this thread.

Seriously people, there are already many mods that address most of the balance issues. Unless you are waiting for a fix that prevents you from playing the game at all, just browse through the workshop and enjoy a good game of Civ.

A mod of the game is not the game. It seems pointless to get good at your own version of something. That would be like making up your own rules for basketball and getting used to them. Then you get totally trashed when you play a real game of basketball.

 

[Gamewizard]

A mod of the game is not the game. It seems pointless to get good at your own version of something. That would be like making up your own rules for basketball and getting used to them. Then you get totally trashed when you play a real game of basketball.

Yes, if you are trying to play multiplayer then you have more of a problem. I meant to address the single player crowd.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Agree with this. Also not having the victory wonder available at 13 affinity, but rather at 15-16 would help a lot.

It would be better to extend the victory out some

Purity... require it to get the space for 15-25 cities

Supremacy... more total strength needed

Harmony.. more turns (need more cities to discount)

Contact...actually a certain (Large) amount of energy from that excess