Since you went Mining Inc first, I would just build wealth. I hope you have Assembly Line.
another hof spacerace start
- Thread starter Snaaty
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nope. so you mean going for it right after mining? (assembly line i mean). i just finished rr, then astro for gallons and island hopping, now i have to deside what to do (at 680 AD right now, with huge research ov). this and getting around 2500+ beakers a turn at 100% research meanst sushi 780 AD if i beeline for it.
sci meth will put a heavy dent in my money situation, and a bit also into research and prod, loosing around 150 gold, 200 research, 100 prod a turn. so delaying it a bit more doesnt sound bad... ...i will be able to have a closer look into it this week i hope (mainly the money really hurts, because it will increase the losses at 100% research from around 250 to around 400 gold... ...ugh)
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any more opinions/tips/hints?
I always go Sushi first, especially on a map like this. So I'm can't really say if you're better off going for Assembly Line now that you have Mining, but it makes all your hammers and Mining resources +100% instead of just +25%. That should pay the bills.
From my experience (not so big) keeping slider at 100% while spreading corps is impossible. Spreading each branch costs some 60-70 gold plus huge maintenance (about 35 gold per turn with courthouse) after that, plus necessity to keep building execs in best production cities.
Mining brought you what 25 hammers per city? Expenses are going to be higher then 25 gpt per city, even if you build wealth wherever possible.
Mining brought you what 25 hammers per city? Expenses are going to be higher then 25 gpt per city, even if you build wealth wherever possible.
some quick answers:
minin is right now at 29 hammers per city and expenses are 33 gold. hq gets 12 gold for each city, so we are talking about 21 gold losses in total (so, in fact, i gain a bit by spreading it and building wealth)
thanks to levees and mining i have quite some cities that build an exec in 1 turn, so spreading is no problem. up to the point i reach sushi i would have the cash for keeping the slider at 100%, including 3 exec-spreads each turn, but after that it would break down for a few turns (another gm will would bring 1300 and i can cash in another wonder in a few turns for another 1200 gold, so eco could recover soon)
problem:
i have too many cities building wealth that way, and have to delay observatories and other usefull stuff (like settlers, missionaries, wbs, units, gallons)
-> i´m tempted right now to go for only a "light" sushi and settling only a few islands to get to "only" around 20 food. the game will last like 40 turns more (up to the point i can strop research) and i dont really see that any huge investment right now will ever pay of... ...i have to do some calcs how many research i need per turn to get all techs after suhi in 2 turns, but my feeling says around 4000 is enough... ...but how to get there, without monastries and GA i would "only" have around 2000 right now...
-> factories and pplants might be indeed the way to go, because another 75% gold would probably solve all my problems because only 50% of the cities i need right now to keep the slider at 100% would need to keep running wealth, which would give some breathing room for other stuff...
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ugh, complicated stuff, i will need a bit of time to toy around with this, but i will try to keep you informed about my doings
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In my opinion, one wants Sid's Sushi before Mining Inc and The Kremlin by the time Sid's Sushi is founded. The -33% costs of whipping due to The Kremlin will make whipping Executives and critical infrastructure quite easy while pursuing Railroad and Mining Inc.
Try using Mining Inc to help build Factories and Coal Plants, so beeline Assembly Line right after Railroad. Or just whip them too using The Kremlin.
Sun Tzu Wu
Try using Mining Inc to help build Factories and Coal Plants, so beeline Assembly Line right after Railroad. Or just whip them too using The Kremlin.
Sun Tzu Wu
My thoughts a long while back:
@Sun Tzu Wu & WastinTime
Given the choice, do you prefer to go to Communism before Biology? Or do you beeline Sushi and then go back?
The Kremlin is massively important for the various 1/2 tile island cities, and without Courthouses, it's nigh-on impossible to justify spreading a corps.
I suppose that Medicine will always win out if it's a serious contender as a Liberalism target, because it's so much more expensive in terms of
than Communism. The challenge then is to build the Kremlin as quickly as possible afterwards (pre-planned overflow, I guess...).
I stressed the AP/Sankore/SM combo much less than you and GKey, snaaty, which may reflect our different priorities.
@Sun Tzu Wu & WastinTime
Given the choice, do you prefer to go to Communism before Biology? Or do you beeline Sushi and then go back?
The Kremlin is massively important for the various 1/2 tile island cities, and without Courthouses, it's nigh-on impossible to justify spreading a corps.
I suppose that Medicine will always win out if it's a serious contender as a Liberalism target, because it's so much more expensive in terms of
than Communism. The challenge then is to build the Kremlin as quickly as possible afterwards (pre-planned overflow, I guess...).
Neither.
I prefer Biology (mostly for National Park, and then Farms), then Communism. You only need communism for the Kremlin. The Gspy is nice, but if I could get the AI to research communism and trade it to me (Mansa), then I'd let him have the Gspy. I might be able to make that happen on Deity/Large, but no way on Immortal/Small will he research fast enough.
thanks for the tips. in the end, i used a combo of what wastin proposed (go assemby line right after mining... ...or almost, i went mining, astro, assembly line).
to keep research up at 100% i used a trade mission & more failgold. sushi was delayed for 3 turns that way, will be in at turn 840 (right now i´m at turn 740), loosing around 400 gold at 100% research without building any wealth. i´m trying to get built 3 execs every turn. i´m getting ahead with this game slowly, but looks like i will get there (1000 AD) eventually
IF i really get there somewhen, i promise i also will do a detailed update (btw. i bow my head to all the hof players, any game played like this REALLY consumes A LOT of time)
to keep research up at 100% i used a trade mission & more failgold. sushi was delayed for 3 turns that way, will be in at turn 840 (right now i´m at turn 740), loosing around 400 gold at 100% research without building any wealth. i´m trying to get built 3 execs every turn. i´m getting ahead with this game slowly, but looks like i will get there (1000 AD) eventually
IF i really get there somewhen, i promise i also will do a detailed update (btw. i bow my head to all the hof players, any game played like this REALLY consumes A LOT of time)
i´ve been away for a week, but besides that i´m still crawling towards 1000 AD (reached 920 AD right now, so not much missing, say another week... ...or two)
-> i went for electricity after both corps were in (assembly line i teched right after mining, like wastin advised). no idea if this was the right move, but i thought of beefing water- and windmills a bit... ...no?
any tips on the techpath after corps would be highly apreciated
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btw. timeline and general plan seem to hold, so in the late 1300th i might start on the ship, if all contiues like it looks right now.
another interesting fact:
i was able to keep research at 100% all the time while spreading mining and did spread quite aggressively to all cities within around 10 turns or so (and will do so for sushi also). this helped greatly to save precious turns in midgame (i will let you know how i did it in the next great update, the 1000 AD one... ...somewhen)
(reached 920 AD right now, so not much missing, say another week... ...or two)-> i went for electricity after both corps were in (assembly line i teched right after mining, like wastin advised). no idea if this was the right move, but i thought of beefing water- and windmills a bit... ...no?
any tips on the techpath after corps would be highly apreciated
...
btw. timeline and general plan seem to hold, so in the late 1300th i might start on the ship, if all contiues like it looks right now.
another interesting fact:
i was able to keep research at 100% all the time while spreading mining and did spread quite aggressively to all cities within around 10 turns or so (and will do so for sushi also). this helped greatly to save precious turns in midgame (i will let you know how i did it in the next great update, the 1000 AD one... ...somewhen)
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100% Research while spreading a corporation is a great achievement, but how good that really is depends on one's Commerce rate. For example, 100% of 1000 Cpt is only half as good as 20% of 10000 Cpt. My point is 100% Research doesn't mean much, if the commerce rate is relatively low.
Perhaps you could mention the Cpt or Bpt rates as well?
Sun Tzu Wu
Perhaps you could mention the Cpt or Bpt rates as well?
Sun Tzu Wu
klonoklown
Civ Junky
Valid point. I'm very curious to see what the cpt or bpt rates are as well. Also kinda sad this thread is moving slow. Space is one of my weak points and I have been learning a lot from this thread. But I understand RL can be very consuming, excited to see the next checkpoint when you guys have time.
off course, good point:
out of memory, because no civ at hand right now:
pre-scmeth: at max. around 2500 beakers and loosing around 300 gold at 100% research
after: around 2200 beakers and loosing around 400 gold at 100% research, both numbers going up each turn a bit
and i stayed in merk so far, because it granted around 120 beakers more then FM, at the cost of 80 gold per turn. my thinking was that research >>> gold, because gold i managed to create enough via trade-missions, wonderfailgold & building wealth
with some 35 cities, slowly rising, chaining GA´s to keep it going through mid-game
-> back to my question:
so what is the ideal research-path after corps are in?
Depends a bit on what Mansa is researching. Try to work it so you get free tech from him (or others).
Usually I go to superconductors with a possible detour to Radio for Cristo.
There are two ways to get to superconductors (thru refrigeration or the long way). Last time, I was teching fast enough to completely ignore Refrig and go thru plastics/computers.
Then you need to get Rocketry. Now, since this is normal speed (which I'm not used to), you may need to get rocketry and start Apollo first before you go to superconductors. Like I mentioned before, it really depends on what you think you can get in free tech (usually rifling and combustion)
Usually I go to superconductors with a possible detour to Radio for Cristo.
There are two ways to get to superconductors (thru refrigeration or the long way). Last time, I was teching fast enough to completely ignore Refrig and go thru plastics/computers.
Then you need to get Rocketry. Now, since this is normal speed (which I'm not used to), you may need to get rocketry and start Apollo first before you go to superconductors. Like I mentioned before, it really depends on what you think you can get in free tech (usually rifling and combustion)
incredible but true, i reached 1000 AD
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havent met my own goal of 3000+ beakers at 1000 AD (between 2800 and 2900) but besides that we are still on track. and after spreading sushi will be done soon, it should go up fast because some cities can be switched from wealth to research...
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on a side note:
free religion obsolets spiral and uos... ...ugh, should have known that
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space-ship countdown:
15.5 techs missing, 2 turns a tech on average, so we should be able to get it somewhen between 1300 and 1400 AD, making a launch before 1500 AD really quite possible (maybe even before 1400 AD, IF we manage to get teching up fast enough and get a bit faster then 2 turns a tech)
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tired now, pics and details later, maybe this WE
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havent met my own goal of 3000+ beakers at 1000 AD (between 2800 and 2900) but besides that we are still on track. and after spreading sushi will be done soon, it should go up fast because some cities can be switched from wealth to research...
...
on a side note:
free religion obsolets spiral and uos... ...ugh, should have known that
...
space-ship countdown:
15.5 techs missing, 2 turns a tech on average, so we should be able to get it somewhen between 1300 and 1400 AD, making a launch before 1500 AD really quite possible (maybe even before 1400 AD, IF we manage to get teching up fast enough and get a bit faster then 2 turns a tech)
...
tired now, pics and details later, maybe this WE
Sushi should boost research more than you expect. I think (hope) you will reach 1 tech/turn in the next 10 turns. Then you might re-think the mining/sushi debate.
In my 700 AD space game, after Physics, I got all techs in 2 or 3 turns each (that's on marathon speed where beakers are tripled...and even more since that game was Deity). So you should be doing 1 tech/turn or you're doing something wrong.
In my 700 AD space game, after Physics, I got all techs in 2 or 3 turns each (that's on marathon speed where beakers are tripled...and even more since that game was Deity). So you should be doing 1 tech/turn or you're doing something wrong.
i dont think i will be able to do so. i´m already thinking of stopping to spread sushi to be honest
why that:
if i want to finish the game in 25-30 turns, anything i do needs to pay off in time (and that´s the timeline for almost 2 turns/tech). now looking at sushi, costs are for any new city:
- 3 turns for a courthouse (assuming we have mining), each turn costing 60 gold
- assuming we grow every turn (we need a gran, 60) and we have build a lib (90), we get, 9 (say 10) beakers every turn more via scientits
- with a courthouse we have costs of 30 for sushi, so we keep loosing 3 more turns untill break even after the courthouse (30 gold more)
-> doing the math (with beakers-money-hammers 1/1/1):
60*3+120 (courthouse)+90(lib)+60(gran)+30+120(exec+spreading)=600 TOTAL EXPENSES
- we have invested 7 turns to get that far already and to reach break even, leaving us with, say 20 turns to make provit.
each turn profit goes 10 up, starting with 10, we end up with a profit of 550 after 10 turns, under ideal circumstances. now calculating interests (we have to invest first, then we slowly gain something, inflation, growing city costs for more size and such), lets say after 12 turns we break even, leaving us with 8 turns to actually make profit
-> any new city will drain money for 19 (say 20 turns) untill sushi really pays of. now planning to finish the game withing the next 25-30 turns, any city that cant get sushi within the next 4-5 turns will actually never pay off
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maybe i´m missing something? or the difference in speed does make the difference?
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on a side-note:
i dont think i will be able to trade for any tech in this game, becaues the ai isnt teching fast enough (it´s only immortal), so assuming to selfresearch everything seems the way to go
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another interesting fact:
any mining city with leeve and/or some prod gives around 120 gold/beakers, so with 30 cities building research, i might approach the 1 tech/turn ratio with massive research building if i stop spreading sushi... ...have to calculate a bit on that...
after thinking a bit about the fact why sushi doesnt seem that uberstrong to me, while wastin thinks it´s really that strong... ...it occured to me that it is on of these gamespeed things you normally dont really think about:
marathon is 3 times longer (more turns) then normal speed, so everything costs 3 times more (or something along that lines, not really familiar with marathon)
mining scales correctly, because you get an absolute outcome of production/turn. 3 turns the same production advantage equals out 3 times the costs.
sushi is a different story, because it´s power comes from turnbased growth. now on normal speed you grow 1pop/turn, gaining, say 10 beakers in total.
on marathon it would equal out again with 3 times the costs if you would gain the same beakers 10 beakers for 3 turns (3times more beakers = 3 times more costs).
-> but no, the real power of sushi is that even on marathon you can grow 3 times in these 3 turns because of the massive ov of food. so the gain per turn goes up from 10 beakers to 30 beakers while the costs stay linear, therefore sushi is 3 times more powerfull on marathon...
you gain even more via connecting more ressources earlier, therefore making the growth advantage even more biased towards marathon (units move at the same speed, here WBs)
marathon is 3 times longer (more turns) then normal speed, so everything costs 3 times more (or something along that lines, not really familiar with marathon)
mining scales correctly, because you get an absolute outcome of production/turn. 3 turns the same production advantage equals out 3 times the costs.
sushi is a different story, because it´s power comes from turnbased growth. now on normal speed you grow 1pop/turn, gaining, say 10 beakers in total.
on marathon it would equal out again with 3 times the costs if you would gain the same beakers 10 beakers for 3 turns (3times more beakers = 3 times more costs).
-> but no, the real power of sushi is that even on marathon you can grow 3 times in these 3 turns because of the massive ov of food. so the gain per turn goes up from 10 beakers to 30 beakers while the costs stay linear, therefore sushi is 3 times more powerfull on marathon...
you gain even more via connecting more ressources earlier, therefore making the growth advantage even more biased towards marathon (units move at the same speed, here WBs)
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
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Executives also cost less on marathon (2x not 3x) and move much faster. Corps are better in general on that speed.
Every game is different; if you're past the point where sushi can't give returns surpassing investment before you win, you should stop spreading it.
Every game is different; if you're past the point where sushi can't give returns surpassing investment before you win, you should stop spreading it.
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