Antifa rocks!

[Patine]

Whether it was "illegal" is debatable. The US allowed for it, and the nuance is sufficiently different that I'd call this one something else. Though given some of the "justification" being done we have a few extra potential crimes for that one.

It would be useful to distinguish between organized governments making questionable claims as a basis for invading someone and controlling resources vs organized groups committing violence to influence civilians politically. You could make a case for terror with the pushing democracy in ME and how the US has influenced political leadership abroad historically though, reaching beyond Iraq/Middle East in that context well into the cold war era of our history.

So some terror + lots of other not-so-good things maybe?

If Goering and Ribbentrop (the only two living Nazi Party members of the Third Reich cabinet left by the end of WW2) can be tried for their crimes, then, by that same logic, so can the Bush Administration, and they REALLY should be and are greatly deserving of it, and having the book thrown at them to boot.

I'm persecuting people for not using your definition of fascism? Where are you when the left calls all sorts of people fascist outside your definition? Hell, Antifa calls the people they attack fascists and you're complaining about me instead. Violently suppressing free speech is fascistic. Just letting you know. You're welcome to come up with a different word but odds are it'll either be synonymous with fascistic behavior or rarely used.

If any individuals of a left-wing perspective (because, of course, as any sane, rational, and informed person knows, the hive-mind, lockstep, singular-mentality, undeviating, legion-entity often referred to in a lot of right-wing rhetoric as "the left" - in exactly the viewpoint and perspective I just detailed - does not exist, which is another erroneous term you, and several others like to use that I'm also correcting as a fallacy and myth) uses the word "Fascism" wildly inappropriately, like you do, I'll correct them too. As a Centrist with a strong disdain for far- or hard-right- or left-wing political ideologies, I'm not correcting you here solely because of your political leanings, or being easier on others because of theirs.

 

[Mouthwash]

Yeah, seems like a lot of assumptions on your part here. Tl;dr, if you want a tweet that shatters the brains of 'the left' I would say try harder.

There's only one assumption there, and it's a very reasonable one.

Oddly contradictory. You insist that it is not code for civil war but what do you mean by "that way" if not the way described in the post you are quoting? You offer no alternative. What exactly are you saying here?

The left will not be satisfied until they remove every parental right, every social or educational sphere and every traditional mode of life that doesn't conform to their view of human nature. Based on your posting history, I assume you wholeheartedly support this - but don't expect us to simply roll over and let you.

 

[Patine]

The left will not be satisfied until they remove every parental right

Amazing! The post RIGHT AFTER I bring up how stupid, uniformed, erroneous, and ridiculous using the term "the left" in the context in the modern zeitgeist as a singular, unified, monolithic, bloc, hive-mind unit is, someone uses the term in a serious usage, fully brainwashed that the daft term actually has legitimacy and is credible and should be taken seriously. Will wonders (or blunders) of the world never cease? :S

 

[aelf]

So calling out both sides for their contributions to the problem is "faux virtue?" Where does the "virtue and honestly" lay. I'm fully expecting an insulting-to-the intelligence tirade where one side is the bad guy and the other is the victim, and anyone who says otherwise is a <blank ideological catchphrase insult>, of the kind of tripe I hear constantly, all over the place from - you guessed it - both sides of the equation. I'm hoping I'm wrong about the answer I anticipate, and that I'll be pleasantly surprised (and it won't be even stupider and more ridiculous).

There's no need for a tirade when this post of yours stands yet again as a great example of faux virtue. Everyone not hewing to your brand of politics must be "insulting-to-the intelligence", playing the victim and intolerant. It's the perfect example of moderate insufferability and extremism that matches the attitudes and behaviour of those you despise. Thank you.

 

[cardgame]

excessive Trump bashing

Implying there is such thing a thing

One side has to stop and listen. Preferably both, of course.

And we all know one side won't listen, because reality is actually (((fake news))) - so your proposal would only bind one side. Taking the high road only works when the other side has a sense of shame.

I don't see any objective reason to accept the basic premise that intolerant people will destroy a tolerant society.

What about the objective reason that it has already happened? The Weimar Republic was the world leader in sexology, but the Institute for Sexology and its massive library were destroyed by the Nazis less than three months after they took power, May 8, 1933. The institute was shut down and its books were burned. And we all know what happened to minorities in Germany.

 

[Patine]

There's no need for a tirade when this post of yours stands yet again as a great example of faux virtue. Everyone not hewing to your brand of politics must be "insulting-to-the intelligence", playing the victim and intolerant. It's the perfect example of moderate insufferability and extremism that matches the attitudes and behaviour of those you despise. Thank you.

The foundations of that statement, and the hypocrisy so deeply intertwined with it, and the flawed and self-serving (and self-deceiving) world view that produced, that is so blatantly obvious, makes only one response truly appropriate here - LOOK IN THE MIRROR!

 

[Estebonrober]

The left will not be satisfied until they remove every parental right, every social or educational sphere and every traditional mode of life that doesn't conform to their view of human nature. Based on your posting history, I assume you wholeheartedly support this - but don't expect us to simply roll over and let you.

Honestly I've never felt pressured by anyone to raise my kids any other way then the way I have chosen. I do feel like a big part of society would like to exercise that same privilege of raising their families how they see fit without others impressing how disgusting they are and I feel that is long overdue. Traditions change, meld, mold, crust over, and become reborn. Culture does the same things. Its dynamic and in our current age both things are very fluid.

 

[Peuri]

Implying there is such thing a thing

Obviously depends on what you want to do. If you want to have a fun ridiculing your fellow citizens till they've had enough, and would rather see you on a stake, go right ahead. But that will destroy the trust that exists between the sections of the nation. The results of that haven't been pretty to watch.

And we all know one side won't listen, because reality is actually (((fake news))) - so your proposal would only bind one side. Taking the high road only works when the other side has a sense of shame.

Do we know? Will you listen? Or will you also, only assume? Are the parenthesis implying that Trump supporters are anti-semites now too? I thought they were all supposed to just hate the Afroamericans, Muslims and Mexicans. I don't like racists, I especially don't like anti-semites, but how many anti-semites do you think have changed their minds after being made fun of? How many Islamists have dropped their ideology after being told they are stupid? To me they are all stupid, but what use is it to broadcast that to the world, and to their face, other than making me feel superior and increasing my prestige in the hierarchy of my little tribe? Hate will only beget hate, no matter who does it and no matter how high their values supposedly are, as opposed to those assumed to their narratological opponents.

I certainly have fallen in this trap before of reducing the opponent into a caricateur of itself, and seen the uselessness of it now. Healing can only begin by listening. And one side has to start that. So the high road is the only road, if you wany to heal. But if you want hell, the road to war is paved with words of hate.

 

[onejayhawk]

You start by discussing antifa and end discussing hate groups. That actually makes sense.

Why am I surprised?

J

 

[Peuri]

You start by discussing antifa and end discussing hate groups. That actually makes sense.

Why am I surprised?

J

I don't understand what you are implying, but isn't hate groups what antifa is supposedly against? So discussing whether or not their hate can quench the hate group's hate, or just hating in general, makes sense to me atleast.

 

[Imaus]

Obviously depends on what you want to do. If you want to have a fun ridiculing your fellow citizens till they've had enough, and would rather see you on a stake, go right ahead. But that will destroy the trust that exists between the sections of the nation. The results of that haven't been pretty to watch.


Do we know? Will you listen? Or will you also, only assume? Are the parenthesis implying that Trump supporters are anti-semites now too? I thought they were all supposed to just hate the Afroamericans, Muslims and Mexicans. I don't like racists, I especially don't like anti-semites, but how many anti-semites do you think have changed their minds after being made fun of? How many Islamists have dropped their ideology after being told they are stupid? To me they are all stupid, but what use is it to broadcast that to the world, and to their face, other than making me feel superior and increasing my prestige in the hierarchy of my little tribe? Hate will only beget hate, no matter who does it and no matter how high their values supposedly are, as opposed to those assumed to their narratological opponents.

I certainly have fallen in this trap before of reducing the opponent into a caricateur of itself, and seen the uselessness of it now. Healing can only begin by listening. And one side has to start that. So the high road is the only road, if you wany to heal. But if you want hell, the road to war is paved with words of hate.

The left in the US has already been the 'civil' side that has generally played the high road, that long tolerated the antics of the right and their ratfudging, their fake news, their redbaiting and short-handed tricks. The left has allowed the right to take the Presidency twice over the masses because in the end the supreme law has outlaid a path for it and they follow the law. The left has not armed itself, organized itself, or acted as the right has done for, at least, the last forty years. That's three odd generations of Americans directly affected by a division that I see as started by and carried by the right.

The continued unity and peacefulness of the US, despite this, almost lends credence to the American Exceptionalism myth, were it not for the repeated rightist control of the US that has squashed the left and any real threat thereof during the same time. Post-election violence and riots, regionalism, full blown insurgencies even approaching anything like even Galicia or Paraguay- which would cause the right to lose its absolute mind alone; if anything like Colombia happened the nation would probably spin itself out of existence - assassinations, and political violence etal in general are all seen as fanciful and with disdain.

Anti-fa can't even get a good foothold among Libprogs simply because of optics or a ingrained disdain for violence among the modern left. Coming from Europe, coming from Spanish Republicans, coming from an international standpoint, the Right should be thankful of how placid the current left is and how calm the current political environment is. Oh wait - how they abuse that reality already shows their thanks.

 

[Peuri]

The left in the US has already been the 'civil' side that has generally played the high road, that long tolerated the antics of the right and their rat****ing, their fake news, their redbaiting and short-handed tricks. The left has allowed the right to take the Presidency twice over the masses because in the end the supreme law has outlaid a path for it and they follow the law. The left has not armed itself, organized itself, or acted as the right has done for, at least, the last forty years. That's three odd generations of Americans directly affected by a division that I see as started by and carried by the right.

The continued unity and peacefulness of the US, despite this, almost lends credence to the American Exceptional myth, were it not for the repeated rightist control of the US that has squashed the left and any real threat thereof during the same time. Post-election violence and riots, regionalism, full blown insurgencies even approaching anything like even Galicia or Paraguay- which would cause the right to lose its absolute mind alone; if anything like Colombia happened the nation would probably spin itself out of existence - assassinations, and political violence etal in general are all seen as fanciful and with disdain.

Anti-fa can't even get a good foothold among Libprogs simply because of optics or a ingrained disdain for violence among the modern left. Coming from Europe, coming from Spanish Republicans, coming from an international standpoint, the Right should be thankful of how placid the current left is and how calm the current political environment is. Oh wait - how they abuse that reality already shows their thanks.

What is "the left" to you? The Democrats? Or something more akin to "democratic socialists" (read social democracts) Sanders and Cortez? I'm not saying that the right wing, that is the Republicans, is not worse. They most likely are. I grew up hating the Bush presidency evangelicals, even from a distance. But all this is your narrative. What is the narrative of the other side? I am sure they see themselves just as virtuous as you do. What do you see as the end game of this circling vitriol? I see only street fights in the future. Did you see how the twitterati from "the left" responded to the "MAGA kids" incident? Calling for violence and doxxing of the kids? If there was a high horse, it's now being made into salami.

 

[Patine]

The left in the US has already been the 'civil' side.

The third time today on this thread this braindead, uninformed, sheepish, thoughtless, myth of a term is used is used in the same context as I stated above by someone else who obviously actually believes it's a real, viable, credible term and doesn't make them sound like a fool for a using.

 

[Berzerker]

I think everyone here understands the point you are trying to make. I think it’s just an exercise in snarky hyperbole that makes you feel better about being dismissive of antifa. Which is fine. Whatever.

It’s just dumb.

If they get the point it aint dumb...but it does show a double standard. The left throws the word around at all sorts of people and I dont see y'all lecturing them about its proper use.

If any individuals of a left-wing perspective (because, of course, as any sane, rational, and informed person knows, the hive-mind, lockstep, singular-mentality, undeviating, legion-entity often referred to in a lot of right-wing rhetoric as "the left" - in exactly the viewpoint and perspective I just detailed - does not exist, which is another erroneous term you, and several others like to use that I'm also correcting as a fallacy and myth) uses the word "Fascism" wildly inappropriately, like you do, I'll correct them too. As a Centrist with a strong disdain for far- or hard-right- or left-wing political ideologies, I'm not correcting you here solely because of your political leanings, or being easier on others because of theirs.

The thread is about Antifa - its right there in the title and OP. So did you correct the OP or Antifa for misusing the term? You called Homeland Security the American Gestapo and you're complaining about me calling the violent suppression of free speech fascistic? As for 'the left', have you ever heard a leftist call someone a fascist? I see it all the time. And I see your straw man, when I say accusations of fascism are directed at people from the left, I dont mean everyone left of center calls people fascists. Did you really need a caveat explaining that?

Amazing! The post RIGHT AFTER I bring up how stupid, uniformed, erroneous, and ridiculous using the term "the left" in the context in the modern zeitgeist as a singular, unified, monolithic, bloc, hive-mind unit is, someone uses the term in a serious usage, fully brainwashed that the daft term actually has legitimacy and is credible and should be taken seriously. Will wonders (or blunders) of the world never cease? :S

Maybe he was still thinking and typing before seeing the illuminating halo of your presence fill his screen with your unimpeachable wisdom.

There's no need for a tirade when this post of yours stands yet again as a great example of faux virtue. Everyone not hewing to your brand of politics must be "insulting-to-the intelligence", playing the victim and intolerant. It's the perfect example of moderate insufferability and extremism that matches the attitudes and behaviour of those you despise. Thank you.

Dont blame him on us

 

[onejayhawk]

I don't understand what you are implying, but isn't hate groups what antifa is supposedly against? So discussing whether or not their hate can quench the hate group's hate, or just hating in general, makes sense to me atleast.

Supposedly yes. That they are what they supposedly condemn is not surprising. This is commonplace. What surprises me that others in the forum also consider them a hate group.

J

 

[Traitorfish]

Anyone who wants to shut down the opposition using violence is highly suspect in my book: right, left or middle. 'Antifa' are firmly in that crowd.

How do you feel about the police?

 

[Imaus]

What is "the left" to you? The Democrats? Or something more akin to "democratic socialists" (read social democracts) Sanders and Cortez? I'm not saying that the right wing, that is the Republicans, is not worse. They most likely are. I grew up hating the Bush presidency evangelicals, even from a distance. But all this is your narrative. What is the narrative of the other side? I am sure they see themselves just as virtuous as you do. What do you see as the end game of this circling vitriol? I see only street fights in the future. Did you see how the twitterati from "the left" responded to the "MAGA kids" incident? Calling for violence and doxxing of the kids? If there was a high horse, it's now being made into salami.

'The Left' is anything to the left-of-center, which in the US may be more centrist than the norm, but anything away from 'centrists' and 'moderates' fits the bill. I would exclude blue dogs and DINOs, but sometimes it feels more like describing what the left is against is easier than what it stands for.

I can't care less for what twitter is up in arms about, and if the right is suddenly losing its **** because of a he-said she-said situation between one busload of kids and another busload of Black Israelites and a Native Vet and the fallout thereof, well, welcome to PR. People form opinions and react to things! So shocking!

Chances are low that anyone is going to fight over those twerp kids. People vent, get angry, move on to the next problem. And honestly? The US can take a few fist fights on the street. The US is not so fragile it cannot handle petty political violence. Nations have riots, massive protest movements, bloodless and bloody revolutions, and still stand as either great or high powers. Not worried there.

The third time today on this thread this braindead, uninformed, sheepish, thoughtless, myth of a term is used is used in the same context as I stated above by someone else who obviously actually believes it's a real, viable, credible term and doesn't make them sound like a fool for a using.

No one cares for what you have to say if you just prattle insults, or your faux-whining about what is or is not appropriate, or your whinging about some 'middle way' or whatever you're spouting about. Why are you so important that your...view...is important for us to take up as a thread? Divisions in politics exist, have always existed, and you can either work with that reality or be ignored. The left exists as a tangible thing. It is, if anything, actually getting a backbone and traction in the US. While wild divisions and fanciful monikers like 'Democratic Socialism' and the like exist, and soul-searching will be undertaken, something has formed and will refine itself, something that is equatable to first world Social Liberalism or Social Democracy - both on the Left; unless you're some Commie who thinks anything Capitalist can never be Leftist, in which case, we're Centrists.

 

[Senethro]

I don't know that I believe in committed "moderates". Like, everyone claims to be a moderate after the fact but what was the moderate position on abolition of slavery? (or the extension of the franchise or citizenship to any group)

What is the moderate position on climate change or global inequality now?

 

[cardgame]

"We can all agree that it's bad (but we shouldn't actually do anything about it)."

 

[Imaus]

I don't know that I believe in committed "moderates". Like, everyone claims to be a moderate after the fact but what was the moderate position on abolition of slavery? (or the extension of the franchise or citizenship to any group)

What is the moderate position on climate change or global inequality now?

"We can all agree that it's bad (but we shouldn't actually do anything about it)."

Basically. It is easy for the partial and convicted to hold Moderates in disdain. Their solutions are often either to uphold a status quo, a small reversion to undo 'radical' or 'hard/alt-x' change to return to a 'better time', or somesuch.

For Slavery, it was either to reignite the African-return colonization schemes or 'wait' until Slavery became an unprofitable form of production, often due to mechanization/industrialization/new markets appearing elsewhere. For Climate Change, I personally notice a wishing atmosphere that some future technology can undo most of the damage down the road, or half-baked attempts to cope : such as the Electronic-personal car fad and repainting of car culture rather than cutting down car use entirely; or meat use, or other such things.

Though with the fear of change being an almost ingrained human factor, it is probably not surprising to see so many Moderates or self-labelled Centrists, especially if change before has bitten them hard. Everyone has a reason or an excuse, if they dig deep enough for one.