Antifa rocks!

[hobbsyoyo]

For social media I blame that on features that allow users to only surround themselves with information and other users that agree with them and block out any opposing opinions or viewpoints.

It's not even social media that solely responsible for this though of course it is more in the forefront there. Even our traditional media is lining up into entrenched camps and pivoting to cover only things their audience wants to hear in the way they want to hear it.

 

[Estebonrober]

It's not even social media that solely responsible for this though of course it is more in the forefront there. Even our traditional media is lining up into entrenched camps and pivoting to cover only things their audience wants to hear in the way they want to hear it.

Because it is what sells. No one wants to be reminded how dumb they are they were to be told how amazing and smart they are, this is particularly true with talk radio I find. "We have the smartest callers" is one of those lines every show says and meanwhile the next caller literally can't remember who the the vice president is currently.

 

[Berzerker]

WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGE

was that the Oklahoma City bombing?

 

[rah]

81 pages and it's still, if you believe in free speech your a nazi enabler. What a farce.
Instead of wasting energy calling them enablers maybe the effort should be in challenging the authorities that you claim don't protect you from feeling intimidated.
Blame the law-keepers and not those that support the law. Your free speech is protected no matter how annoying it gets.
I've marched in anti nazi rallies, but still support free speech. Especially mine

 

[bernie14]

i think he has already been fairly clear that he believes the government, the police and the free speech crowd are all nazi enablers

 

[Lexicus]

81 pages and it's still, if you believe in free speech your a nazi enabler. What a farce.
Instead of wasting energy calling them enablers maybe the effort should be in challenging the authorities that you claim don't protect you from feeling intimidated.
Blame the law-keepers and not those that support the law. Your free speech is protected no matter how annoying it gets.
I've marched in anti nazi rallies, but still support free speech. Especially mine

I support free speech but I also support mowing down demonstrating Nazis with live ammunition
If you call me on the seeming contradiction I will accuse you of violating my free speech and insist that I'm entitled to my own opinion

 

[rah]

I have frequently supported the Blues Brothers method. I support cloud's right to rant here as much as he desires. I don't feel threatened by it and I know if tries to intimidate me, that it will be handled appropriately.

 

[brennan]

I support free speech but I also support mowing down demonstrating Nazis with live ammunition
If you call me on the seeming contradiction I will accuse you of violating my free speech and insist that I'm entitled to my own opinion

Nobody is stopping you from expressing your morally bankrupt position.

 

[bernie14]

I support free speech but I also support mowing down demonstrating Nazis with live ammunition
If you call me on the seeming contradiction I will accuse you of violating my free speech and insist that I'm entitled to my own opinion

a fine concrete example of the difference between doing and saying.... its unfortunate that so many don’t understand as well as you do, cuz you know, words are as bad as actions...

 

[Cloud_Strife]

81 pages and it's still, if you believe in free speech your a nazi enabler. What a farce.
Instead of wasting energy calling them enablers maybe the effort should be in challenging the authorities that you claim don't protect you from feeling intimidated.
Blame the law-keepers and not those that support the law. Your free speech is protected no matter how annoying it gets.
I've marched in anti nazi rallies, but still support free speech. Especially mine

If you advocate for fascist's right to speech you are enabling fascists, regardless of your personal intentions, it functionally enables them to spread and grow.

Sorry that you still can't wrap your brain around that concept. You don't get to do that and then complain how unfair it is when the facts are pointed out to you.

Nobody is stopping you from expressing your morally bankrupt position.

Ah yes, if we only we talked to fascists, because that worked so well all the previous times.

 

[Berzerker]

I support free speech but I also support mowing down demonstrating Nazis with live ammunition

Supporting the mass murder of people for speaking supports free speech?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Enabling and tolerating fascists and prejudice helps minorities exactly how?

From my personal experiences, it's only ever hurt me and i've yet to see how the benefits of it outweigh the negatives, unless the implicit understanding is that not all of society will be blessed with the resulting benefits... only the majority, as long as they aren't a member or part of a group the aforementioned people want to kill.

It's kind of annoying and deeply frustrating having people who haven't experienced the end result of allowing fascists and prejudice to spread, continue to advocate for their free speech rights even as people are demonstrably suffering from them, not to mention inciting their more excitable travellers to commit acts of violence against minorities.

I've yet to hear an argument that doesn't rely on certain sections of society being expected to tolerate what they will, to appease the majority and their holy cow of "free speech", in the hopes that over times, decades even, the violence and abuse will decrease. The problem is that puts a burden on the victims and is morally unacceptable to me, this is what i mean by the "status quo", centuries of oppression and being told we are implicitly lesser than those that are considered the "norm".

What's worse is i have cis-people telling me as a transperson that i don't have much to worry, I'm sorry but what?

 

[brennan]

It's kinda weird how totally convinced you are that merely putting up with a minority of obnoxious people will magically make their ideology amazingly popular.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Do you seriously think tolerating fascists and the like doesn't allow them to propogate and grow?

It doesn't matter if you protest them as long as you allow them to recruit.

But go on Brennan, explain to me why allowing fascists and prejudiced people having their free speech, along with the ability to spread it to others, is somehow beneficial to me.

I'm waiting, but whilst i am waiting i just want to let you know that i am on the recieving end of what you enable, so you can talk all noblely about free speech but from where i am standing i'm the one that is paying.

 

[brennan]

We live in societies that are extremely tolerant of all sorts of ideas, many of them contradictory. It is impossible for them all to simply grow, ideas need some sort of fertile ground to spread. Like extremists from the other side lumping moderates in with fascists willy-nilly and declaring that they should be mown down with automatic weapons. Thank goodness political debate hasn't reached such surreal extremes, eh?

Edit: Example of a not-just-tolerated, but publicly lauded set of ideas that is shrinking in popularity in the US: Christianity.

Counter-example of an extremely poorly tolerated set of ideas that is growing in the US: atheism.

Conclusion: tolerance has bugger all to do with the popularity of specific sets of ideas.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how it is beneficial to me, to tolerate these people, groups and their speech.

Nevermind that allowing them to speak openly only furthers their goals of reaching more people and recruiting.

So again, what benefits of tolerating these people do i recieve, as a member of a minority group harrassed, abused, attacked and even killed by these people and why does free speech somehow trump all of that? To me it is not an acceptable compromise.

 

[brennan]

You receive the benefits of living in a relatively free, prosperous society, where liberal values have resulted in some of the highest living standards in the world and you are far more likely to have your rights respected than in the sort of country to seem to want to live in.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You receive the benefits of living in a relatively free, prosperous society, where liberal values have resulted in some of the highest living standards in the world.

Except i am not actually "free" if i have to worry and be constantly vigilant about my safety, unless you think those threats have disappeared? Transpeople are still being killed today, in this country, in this year. The threats are real and they still exist, nor do i feel safe in a society in which people who want me gone can freely go about and spread their filth, but for whatever reason that doesn't seem to translate in your mind.

Also Brennan just to be clear, do you accept the fact that allowing fascists the right to speech allows them to grow, recruit and expand?

And if you don't, please explain to me how that is not the case. One only needs to look at the internet to see how they've hooked into a generation of potential recruits, one only need look at the likes of Elliot Rogers or Brenton Tarrent.

If you do accept it, why are you willing to put other people in potential danger, both currently and in future terms? Why do you think you should be free of any criticism if you advocate for something that has the end result of allowing suffering for minorities? I mean would you prefer if we just shut up and took it, like we have in the past? Does being held to account make you feel uncomfortable?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

To make a general point; regardless of individual peoples intentions when it comes to free speech, if they allow fascists to speak and i suffer as a result of that why shouldn't i call them out? Why shouldn't i remind them of the cost of free speech? If that makes people uncomfortable well congratulations, i wasn't exactly comfortable during my previous experiences and yet i am told by the same people who don't go through it, to simply sit down and be quiet.

Why should i and others pay the price for something that society already compromises on, both legally and otherwise? As if being told that "oh well you can talk as well!" is of any consolation to the people being targetted by prejudice and fascists, as if it is of any comfort to them, as if it does nothing but enable the status quo, as if it is a solution to the problems they've faced for decades, well before the majority even learnt of them and began taking pity.

If minorities point this out and you don't take them into account it becomes willful ignorance, a desire to look the over way so the majority can feel good about their free speech. The price paid by minorities isn't worth it to them, but the majority thinks it is, but they are wrong.

 

[BvBPL]

If you advocate for fascist's right to speech you are enabling fascists, regardless of your personal intentions, it functionally enables them to spread and grow.

Do you think fascists have a right to representation before a criminal tribunal?