April 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[aieeegrunt]

I mean I like playing Germany and I like founding cities on rivers so I like that Germany has a river start bias, but I fail to see how that is a balance change

 

[Equilin]

I mean I like playing Germany and I like founding cities on rivers so I like that Germany has a river start bias, but I fail to see how that is a balance change

Germany can rack up insane IZ adjacencies using CH in addition to the usual dam and aqueducts. CH benefits from rivers and dam/aqueduct require rivers, so Germany will have a problem without rivers. This change make them less likely to have that problem.

 

[MrRadar]

Hm, if you nearly wipe out a civ, and let their last city loyalty flip into a Free City, now you get the defeat screen of that leader, if you're still at war. It wasn't so before? And since when is it like this in the game?

 

[Alaindor]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning, it's rather depressing... at least I know Scotland didn't get what people here expected, it seems to be one of the main focus, I used to read that everyone wanted Trebuchet's some time ago, now here they are so people shifted on the next thing... I hope developers have good morale! Well guys, it's a game and I take enjoyment in playing it, that's what it's for, even though not perfect let me be thankful for this.

As for the poll results, they should be analyzed taking into account the cultural bias also: in French, "good" means exactly that - good - and not "fair" or "mediocre". We are told here (it may not be true) that in the US, anything below "great" or "fantastic" is plain average, so I understand the different interpretations. In any case, I usually prefer to advocate for even numbers in the choices and no middle answer (such as 6 choices, 3 being "above average" and 4 being "below average") so you have to choose, and it eases the analysis.

 

[Linklite]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning, it's rather depressing... at least I know Scotland didn't get what people here expected, it seems to be one of the main focus, I used to read that everyone wanted Trebuchet's some time ago, now here they are so people shifted on the next thing...

I suspect those are two different groups of people. CivFanatics, and in fact most demographics, are not monolithic entities. I've never seen the fascination with trebuchets; I can see how they might improve the Domination game, but I don't think that they are the best thing since slices bread either. I'll take the trebuchets, but I'd rather that the rebalance was a bit more...balanced? I've seen significantly more requests for Scotland (let alone other civs) to be rebalanced than I have for trebuchets.

As I said, the requests were probably coming from two different groups. If you were at a restaurant and some of your friends wanted steak and others wanted chicken, but the waiters brought everyone chicken, why would anyone be surprised when the people who wanted steak complain?

I'll say it again, as a patch on it's own, I'd normally be very happy with it. That it is quite possibly the last visit the devs will make to the game beyond bug fixes, I'm frustrated at what they chose to spend their time and resources on at the expense of more needful things. I'm really hoping that there will be more content coming and that they'll do a proper cleanup.

 

[DWilson]

I suspect those are two different groups of people. CivFanatics, and in fact most demographics, are not monolithic entities. I've never seen the fascination with trebuchets; I can see how they might improve the Domination game, but I don't think that they are the best thing since slices bread either. I'll take the trebuchets, but I'd rather that the rebalance was a bit more...balanced? I've seen significantly more requests for Scotland (let alone other civs) to be rebalanced than I have for trebuchets.

As I said, the requests were probably coming from two different groups. If you were at a restaurant and some of your friends wanted steak and others wanted chicken, but the waiters brought everyone chicken, why would anyone be surprised when the people who wanted steak complain?

I'll say it again, as a patch on it's own, I'd normally be very happy with it. That it is quite possibly the last visit the devs will make to the game beyond bug fixes, I'm frustrated at what they chose to spend their time and resources on at the expense of more needful things. I'm really hoping that there will be more content coming and that they'll do a proper cleanup.

If it makes it any better, they're still making notes for future text changes. Not clear we'll ever see them, but it would be an odd think to confirm is being looked at if not.

 

[King of Prussia]

Hm, if you nearly wipe out a civ, and let their last city loyalty flip into a Free City, now you get the defeat screen of that leader, if you're still at war. It wasn't so before? And since when is it like this in the game?

It was like this before this patch. Im not sure when it was introduced, perhaps it always was this way.

I am not sure if you take the hit for eliminating a civ if they die this way.

You do not see the screen if you make peace before their last city flips.

 

[Linklite]

If it makes it any better, they're still making notes for future text changes. Not clear we'll ever see them, but it would be an odd think to confirm is being looked at if not.

Where did you hear that? It's good news if it's so.

 

[DWilson]

Where did you hear that? It's good news if it's so.

There are two key comments in this thread that hint at later updates. I want to be clear, however, that neither are by any means confirmations, and both could be seen as routine comments and behaviors which simply haven't changed with the the no further patches status or could simply be considerations for future games. (So, Firaxis and 2K, please don't see these two as having given anything away).

First, from recently promoted designer (formerly QA lead):

We refer to all our updates as Community Updates, and the community was very much involved in the creation of this patch. Most of our balance changes were based directly on fan feedback, including from these forums. Thank you all for your input, and please keep it coming!

With regards to The Netherlands, please keep in mind that Radio Oranje also applies to trade routes you receive from other players, including City-States. This is probably more significant than you think!

Note the section I underlined, which implies they still want feedback on how the game can be improved. (Though this could of course be simply food for thought on future games, it suggests to me they still want to know what we are particularly considering in need of attention).

Second, from their writer and common civfanatics commenter:

Noted and filed. Thanks.

Which he posted in response to comments about needing to update Eureka requirements text. It would be, as @Eagle Pursuit pursuit called out, odd to note and file text in need of updating if no further updates are intended. (But again, it technically could be part of considerations for a future game, Firaxis and 2K, so neither Carl nor Andrew have stated anything indicating spoilers or promises about a future update).

 

[Disgustipated]

From the same city multiple times?

Different cities. I haven't had the same city flip twice. My loyalty pressure is too high for me to lose a city back to a free city again. Missions + governors means I can aggressively forward settle, and I flipped a few Maya cities in North America on the huge Earth map. Since Inca and Maya were occupying my traditional Spanish lands, I went for Canada. I managed to loyalty flip those cities which would normally reside in U.S. territory. Only one I can't get is one where South Texas would be. Oh well. And yeah you could say I should conquer the Inca and Maya for historical reasons. But I'm playing a peaceful game. You could say I'm wasting the conquistador, but it's been helpful against the massive onslaught of barbarians popping up in remote Canadian regions.

Hm, if you nearly wipe out a civ, and let their last city loyalty flip into a Free City, now you get the defeat screen of that leader, if you're still at war. It wasn't so before? And since when is it like this in the game?

I'm pretty sure this has always been the case.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Sure, lets enhance the Aztecs, Incans, Koreans and Zulus for no conceivable reason.

To be fair, they only buffed the Tlachtli, which was, and is probably still, considered to be the worst Unique Building in Civ 6.

 

[Lokreah]

To be fair, they only buffed the Tlachtli, which was, and is probably still, considered to be the worst Unique Building in Civ 6.

It's pretty solid now, since entertainment Complexes got buffed as a whole (as did Arenas).

 

[DWilson]

To be fair, they only buffed the Tlachtli, which was, and is probably still, considered to be the worst Unique Building in Civ 6.

Realistically, Korea got slightly weaker with a negligible buff (changing the ability to match the language and adding a very small additional possible yields as a result), and with the Hwacha getting weaker compared to most units having recieved no change in strength while it should now generally line up for use against stronger units. The Zulu would have been weaker against a much stronger melee class with an anticav focus.

The Incans, otoh, are a real odd one.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It's pretty solid now, since entertainment Complexes got buffed as a whole (as did Arenas).

It's still barely any greater than a regular Arena, which I think is most people's complaint about it.

Some things to make it interesting are maybe the amenities can spread to cities within 4 tiles making it like an early zoo. Also instead of it yielding faith and culture those bonuses could come when you kill an enemy unit within 4 tiles of a tlachtli. I think these bonuses synergize better with the civ.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

It's still barely any greater than a regular Arena, which I think is most people's complaint about it.

Some things to make it interesting are maybe the amenities can spread to cities within 4 tiles making it like an early zoo. Also instead of it yielding faith and culture those bonuses could come when you kill an enemy unit within 4 tiles of a tlachtli. I think these bonuses synergize better with the civ.

Stop stop, don't strengthen the Aztecs, I'm begging you Tlatchtli is strictly better than the arena, it helps to recruit generals a little bit, gives a little more exhaust - that's enough for them I would not mind if it would cost twice as much, not 10%. The Aztecs need to rework the eagle warrior, what is this madness? I would make him a swordsman without iron and in construction tech, like the Maori.

Speaking of little use, I want to remember Peter the Great. Let his ability remain the same, but in addition to it, you could add spy bonuses, like quickly building them. In addition to the fact that Tsar Peter himself secretly traveled to Europe as a spy, he founded the first real intelligence agency in the Russian Empire, which already under him did many acts of espionage - stealing technology, intercepting the plans of enemy states, setting up European states against Sweden. Among other things, this will create a spy flavor for Russia in general, isn't this a popular trend?

Spoiler :

 

[Pietato]

To be fair, they only buffed the Tlachtli, which was, and is probably still, considered to be the worst Unique Building in Civ 6.

Electronics Factory is the worst.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Stop stop, don't strengthen the Aztecs, I'm begging you Tlatchtli is strictly better than the arena, it helps to recruit generals a little bit, gives a little more exhaust - that's enough for them I would not mind if it would cost twice as much, not 10%. The Aztecs need to rework the eagle warrior, what is this madness? I would make him a swordsman without iron and in construction tech, like the Maori.

Fine we'll compromise. I still would want faith and culture whenever you kill an enemy unit within 4 tiles of it for flavor purposes.

Speaking of little use, I want to remember Peter the Great. Let his ability remain the same, but in addition to it, you could add spy bonuses, like quickly building them. In addition to the fact that Tsar Peter himself secretly traveled to Europe as a spy, he founded the first real intelligence agency in the Russian Empire, which already under him did many acts of espionage - stealing technology, intercepting the plans of enemy states, setting up European states against Sweden. Among other things, this will create a spy flavor for Russia in general, isn't this a popular trend?

I think maybe just extra science and culture if you have diplomatic visibility for civs that are more advanced than you would work. It could not only come from spying but also delegations and esablishing embassies, considering the ability is called Grand Embassy.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

Electronics Factory is the worst.

I wonder why Firaxis didn't add to the electronics factory the extension of their cultural bonus to the surrounding cities as well as production? It's obvious that this is how it should be! I've been thinking that way for quite a long time since the game was released.

 

[Aurelesk]

To be fair, they only buffed the Tlachtli, which was, and is probably still, considered to be the worst Unique Building in Civ 6.

Well, out of the unique infrastructures, the unique buildings have the short end:

• Unique districts' cost is halved, and the vast majority of them have extra mechanic: 20% discount, defensible, produce free heavy cavalry, free Science as adjacency from the start, extra Envoy...There are exceptions.
• Unique tile improvements are generally spamable and also allowed to be put on Desert, Toundra or Snow tiles. There are also exceptions.
• Unique buildings are generally not as powerful as a unique districts. Not only the civilization has to pay the full price for the district to appear in the first place, but also have to build the building itself, or need to wait and unlock the according tech (if it is not a tier 1 building). The lesser bonuses are kicking later in the game. Here my top two worst:
  • The Ordu just gives 1 extra Movement to Cavalry units. That's it. While the RNDY is at half cost while also giving 1 extra Movement to all naval units + double Amiral points + 2 Gold and Loyalty on foreign lands.
  • The Electronics Factory need you to go to Industrialization for it. It just gives +2 more Production but only if powered (so you need the Coal Factory + Coal to enjoy any difference than the regular Factory), and +4 Culture only if it reach another tech. A regular Hansa would give more Production as soon as it is unlocked at half cost.
  • And so on.

I do not ask much. Not even powerful unique building, but at least flavorful.

• The Ordu was more than a Stable, it was the chief fine tent. It could yield Culture, Amenity or... dare I say... 1 Envoy à la Acropolis or even Governor's Title (for the first one?)!
• The Electronics Factory could have a "+30% Production toward buildings in the city" to reflect how quick Japan urbanized.

Even if it is still one of the worst unique building, the Tlachtli isn't that bad overall. The problem is the Aztecs are a civilization that does not suffer from not having enough Amenity out all the civilizations. The extra 2 Amenities per Luxury ressources are incredible, why would the Aztecs like to build an Entertainment Complex? The Tlachtli is a consequence: it isn't as bad, it is just not suited to the Aztecs gameplay.
The only way to make the Tlachtli attractive enough to sacrifice a district slot for it is to give it a special mechanic like a regular "+25% Production toward Melee and Anti-cavalry units" or "Receive Faith equal to 20% of the Production cost after training a non-civilian unit". Or a more flavorful but exploitable mechanic like "Lose 1 Population at completion but the city enjoys +50% Culture and Faith for the next 10 turns.".

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I wonder why Firaxis didn't add to the electronics factory the extension of their cultural bonus to the surrounding cities as well as production? It's obvious that this is how it should be! I've been thinking that way for quite a long time since the game was released.

That plus providing at least the eureka for Electricity whenever the first one is built.