April 2021 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Mtgkuvalda]

Fine we'll compromise. I still would want faith and culture whenever you kill an enemy unit within 4 tiles of it for flavor purposes.


I think maybe just extra science and culture if you have diplomatic visibility for civs that are more advanced than you would work. It could not only come from spying but also delegations and esablishing embassies, considering the ability is called Grand Embassy.

Secret visibility, not less than.

I like your tlatchtli bonus, it's small and fun. You can work hard and put an entertainment complex (with the help of slaves, of course) right under the nose of a neighbor and start a holiday in the name of Quetzalcoatl

 

[Lokreah]

Hey man, 2 Culture, 1 Faith, 2 Amenities and 2
1 Great General Point is pretty phenomenal especially in comparison to something like Encampment which are all in all a net loss early game.

And I totally forgot about Builder Charges basically being free districts lol.

Amenities are underrated / underlooked and excess can easily get a new city on it's feet even quicker.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Yup.. ask me how the best Suzerains deal with this very special set of Seven City-States (we can now generate such a custom list straight off Advanced Settings configuration steps).
Try it out -- you'll be surprised how regular dynamics get heavily twisted when the control battle(s) for such extra Luxury-Resources rages on.

NOTE; Available choices above are enhanced by the CIVITAS/CityStates mod, btw.

 

[UWHabs]

It's still barely any greater than a regular Arena, which I think is most people's complaint about it.

Some things to make it interesting are maybe the amenities can spread to cities within 4 tiles making it like an early zoo. Also instead of it yielding faith and culture those bonuses could come when you kill an enemy unit within 4 tiles of a tlachtli. I think these bonuses synergize better with the civ.

They should have dug into the "winning team gets sacrificed" disputed way that they handled things and make it so that any unit that wins a combat within 4 tiles of a Tlachli gets sacrificed and yields a large amount of faith and culture.

 

[Starwars]

I think the patch was quite good, even though there are some changes I don't like.

The thing that makes it disappointing is if this is the "final hurrah" as far as game-patches go, because in my mind it feels more like it's a strong start. I want more patches like this, looking at the civs again, and then continuing on to other mechanics of the game and taking a look at them as well. There is so much to be done still.

This type of balancing was what I was hoping for when they started talking about more patches for the NFP. And like I said... I *like* this patch. But if it's the end, then it's quite disappointing.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Well, out of the unique infrastructures, the unique buildings have the short end:

• Unique districts' cost is halved, and the vast majority of them have extra mechanic: 20% discount, defensible, produce free heavy cavalry, free Science as adjacency from the start, extra Envoy...There are exceptions.
• Unique tile improvements are generally spamable and also allowed to be put on Desert, Toundra or Snow tiles. There are also exceptions.
• Unique buildings are generally not as powerful as a unique districts. Not only the civilization has to pay the full price for the district to appear in the first place, but also have to build the building itself, or need to wait and unlock the according tech (if it is not a tier 1 building). The lesser bonuses are kicking later in the game. Here my top two worst:
  • The Ordu just gives 1 extra Movement to Cavalry units. That's it. While the RNDY is at half cost while also giving 1 extra Movement to all naval units + double Amiral points + 2 Gold and Loyalty on foreign lands.
  • The Electronics Factory need you to go to Industrialization for it. It just gives +2 more Production but only if powered (so you need the Coal Factory + Coal to enjoy any difference than the regular Factory), and +4 Culture only if it reach another tech. A regular Hansa would give more Production as soon as it is unlocked at half cost.
  • And so on.

I do not ask much. Not even powerful unique building, but at least flavorful.

• The Ordu was more than a Stable, it was the chief fine tent. It could yield Culture, Amenity or... dare I say... 1 Envoy à la Acropolis or even Governor's Title (for the first one?)!
• The Electronics Factory could have a "+30% Production toward buildings in the city" to reflect how quick Japan urbanized.

Even if it is still one of the worst unique building, the Tlachtli isn't that bad overall. The problem is the Aztecs are a civilization that does not suffer from not having enough Amenity out all the civilizations. The extra 2 Amenities per Luxury ressources are incredible, why would the Aztecs like to build an Entertainment Complex? The Tlachtli is a consequence: it isn't as bad, it is just not suited to the Aztecs gameplay.
The only way to make the Tlachtli attractive enough to sacrifice a district slot for it is to give it a special mechanic like a regular "+25% Production toward Melee and Anti-cavalry units" or "Receive Faith equal to 20% of the Production cost after training a non-civilian unit". Or a more flavorful but exploitable mechanic like "Lose 1 Population at completion but the city enjoys +50% Culture and Faith for the next 10 turns.".

I definitely agree! Unique buildings generally do not gain you nearly as much advantage as a unique district, purely because unique districts are so cheap. Some examples that I think are notably bad are the Tlachli, Thermal Bath, Tshiske, and Stave Church. When playing as those building's civs, I rarely even want to build the districts those buildings go in, let alone invest enough to get the buildings. Some of them, like the Navigation School and Marae are powerful enough that it's worth the heavy investment (or they go in a district I'd be making a lot of anyway) , and the Palgum at least is a city center building so it's quick to get to.

I think unique buildings should cause the district it goes in to be cheaper to build. I don't know how much. Alternately, somehow make them all city center buildings (perhaps only after you build the first one in its proper district?).

As a side note, every unique building replaces a different base building (Not counting secret societies buildings), except Navigation School and Madrasa both replace the university, and Prasat and Stave Church both replace temple. Neither the lower tier buildings in those districts (library/shrine) have a replacement. This annoys me for some reason. I think the stave church should become a shrine replacement (since Norwray isn't going to be building nearly as many holy sites as Khmer). For the two universities... well, they both make sense as universities and wouldn't make as much sense as library, so I guess I'll just live with being annoyed.

 

[sonicmyst]

April is almost over. I wish they are planning on announcing something next month. I was used to wait for announcements or twitter posts for new updates or content in a monthly basis.

Firaxis spoiled me. Sigh.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

We may have to go back to the Prognosticator of Prognosticators @Eagle Pursuit to divine if there are any new updates in the works.

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

I definitely agree! Unique buildings generally do not gain you nearly as much advantage as a unique district, purely because unique districts are so cheap. Some examples that I think are notably bad are the Tlachli, Thermal Bath, Tshiske, and Stave Church. When playing as those building's civs, I rarely even want to build the districts those buildings go in, let alone invest enough to get the buildings. Some of them, like the Navigation School and Marae are powerful enough that it's worth the heavy investment (or they go in a district I'd be making a lot of anyway) , and the Palgum at least is a city center building so it's quick to get to.

I think unique buildings should cause the district it goes in to be cheaper to build. I don't know how much. Alternately, somehow make them all city center buildings (perhaps only after you build the first one in its proper district?).

As a side note, every unique building replaces a different base building (Not counting secret societies buildings), except Navigation School and Madrasa both replace the university, and Prasat and Stave Church both replace temple. Neither the lower tier buildings in those districts (library/shrine) have a replacement. This annoys me for some reason. I think the stave church should become a shrine replacement (since Norwray isn't going to be building nearly as many holy sites as Khmer). For the two universities... well, they both make sense as universities and wouldn't make as much sense as library, so I guess I'll just live with being annoyed.

Stop underestimating entertainment complexes! These areas are now making good profits, they are buff your theater squares like wonders. Tlatchtli doesn't have to be particularly good, it's just strictly better than an arena for an uber-strong civilization. What's wrong with the thermal baths? Is it not enough that these are mini-industrial zones without electricity? Not enough that it is 2 times more amenity for geothermal sources? Just get out of your comfort zone and build entertainment centers, you don't lose anything from this, you only get.

Stop underestimating tsikhe! This is a magnificent building. Read what the monarchy gives after all the improvements. Read the ability of Georgia. These are brutal walls that are built instantly, giving 4-8 faiths and 2 diplomatic points. Tamar easily places them in all their cities. And being in the renaissance helps stretch out getting golden age points, rather than throwing everything into one era.

I would put Stave Church in drama and poetry, It is not necessary for Norway to adopt a religion. To put it in ancient times, as a replace for the sanctuary, is somehow unhistorical... although the game has a lavra. As a building, it is not bad now, it is just not in Norway's priorities to deal with it.

It is customary to put twice as cheap unique areas in priority, but they are terribly annoying to me from the beginning of the game. This is a very powerful buff, excessive. Why 50%, 25% would be quite enough! In general, need an individual approach, the districts of Pedro could be given a 50% discount, but Korea's seowons? No discount at all! Also with buildings. Tlatchtli and stave church can be given a 50% discount, madrasa 25%, and Alexander's basilikoi 0.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

There are two key comments in this thread that hint at later updates.

This would be a very, very strange patch to authorise if it was intended to be the last one. You want the final patch to tidy things up and not introduce anything new that may need to be rebalanced, you also want to minimise the chance to introduce new bugs. We have major changes to a number of civilizations, the introduction of culturally dominant pressure, a rework of the melee and ranged units as well as lots of other minor changes - none of this makes sense as a final patch. I expect at the very least a final bug fix patch but more likely NFP Season 2.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Sure, lets enhance the Aztecs, Incans, Koreans and Zulus for no conceivable reason.

You might not agree with them but each of these had logical reasons - the Aztecs had the worst UI in the game, the Incans UI was regarded as a trap by many players, Korea's rules confused less experienced players and the Zulus now have a logical path to get to where they need to be on the tech tree.

 

[MrRadar]

I expect at the very least a final bug fix patch

I'm afraid, one bug fix patch won't do. At their pace, I'd rather expect a full season of bug fixing patches.

 

[DWilson]

If they keep giving us fixes in seasons, the games development may never end

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

They should have dug into the "winning team gets sacrificed" disputed way that they handled things and make it so that any unit that wins a combat within 4 tiles of a Tlachli gets sacrificed and yields a large amount of faith and culture.

Well the idea is still there considering whenever you kill a unit you get the yields. Just the thought of Aztecs units permanently deleting every time they kill another enemy unit doesn't necessarily sound fun.
Though it would be a funny trade off especially early game with the Eagle warriors.

Stop underestimating entertainment complexes! These areas are now making good profits, they are buff your theater squares like wonders. Tlatchtli doesn't have to be particularly good, it's just strictly better than an arena for an uber-strong civilization. What's wrong with the thermal baths? Is it not enough that these are mini-industrial zones without electricity? Not enough that it is 2 times more amenity for geothermal sources? Just get out of your comfort zone and build entertainment centers, you don't lose anything from this, you only get.

I do admit most of the time I wait until the Industrial Era and mostly build Water Parks because I think they are more worth it, especially in cities near the coast as they also reach 3 tiles further than EC. Of course the only civ that doesn't need Water Parks is Byzantium.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Is it not enough that these are mini-industrial zones without electricity? Not enough that it is 2 times more amenity for geothermal sources? Just get out of your comfort zone and build entertainment centers, you don't lose anything from this, you only get.

What you lose is all the production you could have put into more useful districts (and possible a district slot)

 

[Mtgkuvalda]

What you lose is all the production you could have put into more useful districts (and possible a district slot)

Happiness\ecstasy returns you this production, divided equally into all types of profit. Plus, there are bonuses for the contiguity of districts, good bonuses for culture. Cities in ecstasy can squeeze out a neighbor with loyalty. It will be possible to sell luxury, thus making a profit. And just grow cities, again increasing production. Additional happiness will help to grow the population and compensate for the waste of the district slot. This district is worth the investment.

If you still don't like the area, then:
The Aztecs build districts for nothing with their slaves, for them it is not a hindrance.
Thermal baths in the center between cities or near a geothermal spring pay off well. Don't build them - think in a stereotypical way, at least in the center between cities, in an area surrounded by theater squares - it's a good deal.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

You might not agree with them but each of these had logical reasons - the Aztecs had the worst UI in the game, the Incans UI was regarded as a trap by many players, Korea's rules confused less experienced players and the Zulus now have a logical path to get to where they need to be on the tech tree.

One of the stated goals of this update was civilization and leader balance.

There is no conceivable logic to enhancing strong civilizations in this context unless all of the weaker civilizations are massively enhanced.

The Aztecs can afford a relatively weak unique building as they have some great features and they get them early on in the game. Likewise, the Incans get almost all their great features early on - I'd don't understand how the UI could be considered a trap given that it is giving food and production on tiles that are normally unproductive. Korea's rules could have been simplified without enhancing their abilities.

It is the civilizations whose unique units, unique buildings and features come late in the game they need to be worth the wait. But, far too often, the civilizations who get their units, building and abilities early on, also get the strongest ones. Another great example of this is Sumeria who also got enhanced.

With Nubia, Russia and Vietnam Firaxis were on the right track with the most powerful civilizations. In enhancing weaker civilizations such as Spain and the Khmer, they were again on the right track.

So, I'll stick with my original comment.

 

[Aurelesk]

Stop underestimating entertainment complexes! These areas are now making good profits, they are buff your theater squares like wonders. Tlatchtli doesn't have to be particularly good, it's just strictly better than an arena for an uber-strong civilization. What's wrong with the thermal baths? Is it not enough that these are mini-industrial zones without electricity? Not enough that it is 2 times more amenity for geothermal sources? Just get out of your comfort zone and build entertainment centers, you don't lose anything from this, you only get.

Stop underestimating tsikhe! This is a magnificent building. Read what the monarchy gives after all the improvements. Read the ability of Georgia. These are brutal walls that are built instantly, giving 4-8 faiths and 2 diplomatic points. Tamar easily places them in all their cities. And being in the renaissance helps stretch out getting golden age points, rather than throwing everything into one era.

I would put Stave Church in drama and poetry, It is not necessary for Norway to adopt a religion. To put it in ancient times, as a replace for the sanctuary, is somehow unhistorical... although the game has a lavra. As a building, it is not bad now, it is just not in Norway's priorities to deal with it.

It is customary to put twice as cheap unique areas in priority, but they are terribly annoying to me from the beginning of the game. This is a very powerful buff, excessive. Why 50%, 25% would be quite enough! In general, need an individual approach, the districts of Pedro could be given a 50% discount, but Korea's seowons? No discount at all! Also with buildings. Tlatchtli and stave church can be given a 50% discount, madrasa 25%, and Alexander's basilikoi 0.

Nobody is saying than almost all unique building are weak. They are, overall, not worth as much than a tile improvement or a district (so weaker).

I am more in favour of having a unique building "flavourful even if weak" than an overall "strong but dumb". The Hansa falls in the second category: it is bloody strong but that's it: except the adjacency from Commercial Hub, it does not have anything more going on than "can have better adjacency bonuses". If the Hansa has fewer Production adjacency but yields Gold as much as its Production adjacency, it would be weaker but more flavourful. Well, you can also have flavourful, strong but dumb unique district too (looking at you the Seowon).

The Tlachtli is a better Arena, and overall good unique building. It is still not worth as much than a Hippodrome that go from 1 to 3 Amenity and the ability to spit out Heavy Cavalry with no maintenance. I repeat myself: the Tlachtli isn't bad, it is not suited for the Aztecs. They gain more Amenities from Luxury resources, so less likely to need Entertainment Complex. The Tlachtli needs to be different and flavourful to be worth it, not just stronger than an Arena. I have more (dumb) ideas for it they could go to be vfeel more unique:

1. +25% Production toward Melee and Anti-cavalry units (à la Navigation School)
   
2. Gain Faith equal to 25% of the unit's cost when a non-civilian unit is created in this city (à la Basilikoi Paides)
3. Gain the unique Tlachtli events projects (65 base Production) which provides +1 additionnal Amenity while developped. At completion, the city loses 1 Population but yields Faith equal to 20% of the Production cost for each unique Luxury you own, and Great General points equal to 30% of Production cost (à la Magnificent / Street Carnival).

 

[iammaxhailme]

I've found that barbarians are getting man-at-arms pretty early and being an absolute nuisance

 

[Kwami]

One of the stated goals of this update was civilization and leader balance.

There is no conceivable logic to enhancing strong civilizations in this context unless all of the weaker civilizations are massively enhanced.

Actually, the logic is quite simple. They want each leader and civilization to be fun to play. They aren't trying to make them equally powerful, but rather to put their power levels within an "acceptable" band while not sacrificing fun.

The Aztecs can afford a relatively weak unique building as they have some great features and they get them early on in the game.

I mean, I guess so. But the minor buff is still very minor. It really doesn't matter much at all. But, it's thematic and a little more fun.

Likewise, the Incans get almost all their great features early on - I'd don't understand how the UI could be considered a trap given that it is giving food and production on tiles that are normally unproductive.

The problem with terrace farms was that they gave you a lot of food, but not enough housing to house the additional population that you'd get from that food. Additionally, you're encouraged to build them next to mountains, which is where you usually want to place districts, and you have to build them on hills, so you're sacrificing production. The ultimate result is a large, unhappy, unproductive population.

Now that the terrace farm gives a full one housing instead of only half, at least part of the problem is solved. You still need to be careful not to use up all of your hills for terrace farms, though.

And, frankly, the Inca weren't all that good before the patch, anyway. I see no problem giving them a small buff.

Korea's rules could have been simplified without enhancing their abilities.

We're talking maybe 5-10 science and food in your empire. It's a tiny, tiny buff that simplifies the ability and makes it less confusing. Good change.

[It is the civilizations whose unique units, unique buildings and features come late in the game they need to be worth the wait. But, far too often, the civilizations who get their units, building and abilities early on, also get the strongest ones. Another great example of this is Sumeria who also got enhanced.

Yeah, I'm a bit puzzled by the Sumeria change. I get that their abilities are a bit awkward in single-player games, but they really don't need +5 CS basically ever.