Are you grateful for America?

[GinandTonic]

People were not deliberatly sprayed plants were.

The stated reason for spraying the plants was that people were hiding in them. If people were not hiding in the plants there would have been no need to spray them. Therefore they were spraying the people hiding in the plants. OED?

 

[Tenochtitlan]

I think it has everything to do with this...only because unless you are from Canada your country has blood on its hands too. My point is that certainly the US has committed acts of wrong throughout the world but it is not alone and many times it is for the best intentions (however misguided). Yes see Iraq.

And I don't think the US deployed military personell to Eastern Europe in the 1950's, or Portugal in the 60's, or most of the other places on your list.

~Chris

Just because I was born in Saudi Arabia and have a Saudi passport doesn't mean I agree with a certain idealogy or I blindly support my country's actions.

Also, I'm not against America. I'm against the fascistic tendencies of the American government, and the Saudi government too. I'm not showing that list because I am anti-America, but to show that these are some of the factors as to which why many people around the world don't like America. It is not because "they hate our freedoms".

Americans have slogans like "Never Forget". Well other people around the world have them too.

I'm sure the majority of the peoples of the world would never prefer war. It is the leaders, and the war profiteers who push them around that crave war.

 

[JohnRM]

Saudi Arabia is not the middle east. It is in the middle east.




The following is a list of US interventions, wars, coups, installation of oppressive governments, overthrowing of democratically elected governments, use of cluster bombs, chemical, biological, involvment of the CIA around the world:


China, 1945-51
France, 1947
Marshall Islands, 1946-58
Italy, 1947-70s
Greece 1947-49
Philippines 1945-53
Korea 1945-53
Albania 1949-53
Eastern Europe 1948-56
Germany 1950s
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1953-1990s
Costa Rica - Mid 50s and 1970-71
Middle east 1956-58
Indonesia 1957-58
Haiti 1959
Western Europe 1950s-1960s
British Guiana 1953-64
Iraq 1958-63
Soviet Union 1940s-1960s
Vietnam 1945-1973
Cambodia 1955-73
Laos 1957-73
Thailand 1965-73
Ecuador 1960-63
The Congo/Zaire 1960-65, 1977-78
Algeria 1960s
Brazil 1961-64
Peru 1965
Dominican Republic 1963-65
Cuba 1959-present
Indonesia 1965
Ghana 1966
Uruguay 1969-72
Chile 1964-73
Greece 1967-74
South Africa 1960s-1980s
Bolivia 1964-75
Australia 1972-75
Iraq 1972-75 Portugal 1974-76
East timor 1975-99
Angola 1975-1980s
Jamaica 1976
Honduras 1980s
Nicaragua 1979-90
Phillipines 1970s-1990s
Seychelles 1979-81
Diego Garcia late 60s-present
South Yemen 1979-84
South Korea 1980
Chad 1981-82
Grenada 1979-83
Suriname 1982-84
Libya 1981-89
Fiji 1987
Panama 1989
Afghanistan 1979-92
El Salvador 1980-92
Haiti 1987-94
Bulgaria 1990-91
Albania 1991-92
Somalia 1993
Iraq 1991
Columbia 1990s-present
Yugoslavia 1995-99
Ecuador 2000
Afghanistan 2001-Present
Venezuela 2001-2004
Iraq 2003-Present
Haiti 2004

A similar , more detailed list is available on wikipedia.

No wonder many people outside of the US are not very fond of the US.

It should be noted that this list is composed of a lot of cases where we just sneezed in somebody else's direction. Many of these events are very minor actions that had no real impact on the nation therein or anyone else, for that matter. In most cases, we actually helped those whom we engaged.


China, 1945-51 --- Chinese civil war. US supported Chiang Kai-shek and the Chinese Nationalists against the Communists and Mao Zedong.

France, 1947 --- Not sure.

Marshall Islands, 1946-58 --- Not sure.

Italy, 1947-70s --- Actions to prevent Communist overthrow of Italian gov't.

Greece 1947-49 --- Assisted in the civil war against Greek Communists.

Philippines 1945-53 --- US efforts to prevent Filipino civil war.

Korea 1945-53 --- US/UN effort to defend Communist take-over of South Korea.

Albania 1949-53 --- No significant involvement.

Eastern Europe 1948-56 --- Can anyone say 'Cold War'?

Germany 1950s --- Can anyone say 'Cold War?'

Iran 1953 --- To be fair, we were involved in Iran much longer than that and some of our actions there were very questionable, if not blatantly wrong.

Guatemala 1953-1990s --- US involvement in civil wars. We did some good things and some bad things.

Costa Rica Mid 50s and 1970-71 --- Costa Rica being the most prosperous and free nation of Central America is partially the result of our intervention to end civil war.

Middle east 1956-58 --- What? We have been involved in the Middle East since well before 1956. A lot of good came out of it and a lot of bad came out of it.

Indonesia 1957-58 --- Not sure.

Haiti 1959 --- Haiti is one of those places, like a drug-addicted child that we just keep having to try to help.

Western Europe 1950s-1960s --- We are still involved in western Europe, but I know specifically what this is about and that is our placement of nuclear weapons there. Here is a little secret that most don't know or acknowledge. *Whisper*We still have nukes there.

British Guiana 1953-64 --- Not entirely sure.

Iraq 1958-63 --- The Hashemite Monarchy was overthrown in 1958 by an Iraqi General named Qassim (spelling?). The new government subsequently withdrew from the Baghdad Pact and grew friendly with the Soviet Union. In 1963, that government was overthrown by a Iraqi Colonel named Arif (spelling?). As far as I know, the US had nothing to do with either event.

Soviet Union 1940s-1960s --- Can anyone say 'Cold War'?

Vietnam 1945-1973 --- US involvement in Vietnam was paltry until 1958. There were individual events that took place during the war that were clearly wrong, but the goal itself was honorable, and that was defending the South Vietnamese from Communist take-over.

Cambodia 1955-73 --- Initially it was about fears of the spread of Communism into Cambodia, but later became simply about fighting the Viet Cong inside that country during the latter parts of the Vietnam War.

Laos 1957-73 --- See 'Cambodia 1955-73'

Thailand 1965-73 --- Another front in the war against Communism, the US supported action by anti-communist elements within Thailand during these years. There was much bloodshed along with countless coups d'etat.

Ecuador 1960-63 --- I am not entirely sure, but I am betting that it was some paltry support given by the US to stablize the government during this time.

The Congo/Zaire 1960-65, 1977-78 --- This is simply humanitarian aid missions and efforts to stablize a region of the world that has seen some pretty terrible wars and tons of bloodshed.

Algeria 1960s --- Again, some intervention to stablize the country, but I am not sure if there were any questionable acts. There is somewhat of a black hole in my history knowledge when it comes to Africa.

Brazil 1961-64 --- Not sure, but we were not responsible for the dictatorship that took power in 1964.

Peru 1965 --- Not sure.

Dominican Republic 1963-65 --- See 'Haiti 1959'

Cuba 1959-present --- Cuba became a territory of the United States following the Spanish-American War of 1898. The US established a naval base at Guantanamo Bay and subsequently signed a lease with the newly-formed Cuban Gov't. There are other notable incidents such as the Bay of Pigs invasion, in which American forces did NOT take part and the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Indonesia 1965 --- The US supported the Indonesian military against Communists. There was some bloodshed, but nothing that the US was directly responsible for.

Ghana 1966 --- Not sure.

Uruguay 1969-72 --- Not sure.

Chile 1964-73 --- Allende took that country and its economy right down the crapper. He made the mistake of freezing US assets and the US fought back with economically and with support for the opposition which culminated in a coup d'etat in 1973.

Greece 1967-74 --- The US had supported Greece after World War II with significant loans and grants via the Marshall Plan just to see it all wasted by a military coup in 1967. The US support democratic opposition against the ruling military junta which collapsed in 1974.

South Africa 1960s-1980s --- Not sure, but South Africa has NEVER experienced a coup.

Bolivia 1964-75 --- Not sure.

Australia 1972-75 --- I'm not sure, but it couldn't have been anything significant.

Iraq 1972-75 --- The US was involved in Iraq prior to and long after the given dates. Our history of involvement has some good points and many bad ones.

Portugal 1974-76 --- Not entirely sure as to the specifics, but I believe the US supported a bloodless coup that is responsible for the current democratic system that Portugal enjoys today.

East timor 1975-99 --- In support of the independence movement and in humanitarian aid efforts.

Angola 1975-1980s --- Angolan civil wars, humanitarian aid.

Jamaica 1976 --- Not sure.

Honduras 1980s --- Another effort to curb civil war and civil unrest.

Nicaragua 1979-90 --- See above.

Phillipines 1970s-1990s --- US involvement was primarily aimed at preventing a communist regime from taking over and also to prevent civil war. The US, however, is still involved in the Philippines, specifically with regard to the continued struggle against Islamic and Communist guerillas.

Seychelles 1979-81 --- Not sure.

Diego Garcia late 60s-present --- Diego Garcia is a British possession from which the US has been allowed via strategic partnership to base strategic bomber aircraft, intelligence aircraft, logistical support aircraft, and as a post for feuling. The island has no indigenous population. The original inhabitants were removed from the island in 1967(?) by the British.

South Yemen 1979-84 --- Not sure, but it was a period that saw the beginnings of the eventual unification of Yemen. So...

South Korea 1980 --- The US never left Korea. We all know why the US is there. Its not a bad thing.

Chad 1981-82 --- Not sure. Remember...Africa is a black hole, to me.

Grenada 1979-83 --- The most significant event was the rescue of American hostages and other stranded civilians in the face of a communist take-over.

Suriname 1982-84 --- Sigh...Africa again.

Libya 1981-89 --- Apart of the Global War on Terrorism before anyone knew what that was.

Fiji 1987 --- There were two coups in 1987, neither of which that I am aware of the US being responsible for. The UK was the primary foreign power involved.

Panama 1989 --- Noriega was defeated in national elections and refused to give up power. He was also implicated in drug trafficking, all of which led to the invasion of Panama in 1989. The US did not keep Panama as a territory, but instead chose to allow the rightly elected government take power, giving that nation complete control over the Panama Canal in 1999.

Afghanistan 1979-92 --- Supported Afghani nationalists and Afghani Muslims against the Soviet puppet regime, the Soviet invasion, and afterward.

El Salvador 1980-92 --- See the other countless interventions in Central America. If these people weren't commited to killing each other all of time, during that era, it wouldn't have been neccessary.

Haiti 1987-94 --- And the crackhead son continues to disappoint us.

Bulgaria 1990-91 --- Post-Cold War assistance to aid transition.

Albania 1991-92 --- Post-Cold War assistance to aid transition.

Somalia 1993 --- Humanitarian mission to end famine that killed more than 300,000 people. Intervened to prevent the interdiction of humanitarian aid by local warlords.

Iraq 1991 --- The US along with most of the known world evicted Iraq from its occupation of Kuwait. Allied forces also pounded the living daylights out of Iraq via an air campaign that made the burning of Sodom and Gemorrah look like a 4th of July Party.

Columbia 1990s-present --- War on Drugs. The US has been trying to help Cuba fight FARC and the massive drug trafficking going on there. FARC is losing and its power diminishing.

Yugoslavia 1995-99 --- Peacekeeping effort along with dozens of other countries to stabilize the region and end massive bloodshed and ethnic cleansing.

Ecuador 2000 --- There was minimal US involvement, primarily restricted to protecting US assets and citizens in country during some tumultuous periods.

Afghanistan 2001-Present --- War on Terrorism; The US was attacked on 9/11/2001 and prior to that by Al Qaeda and the Afghan government had protected that organization within its own borders.

Venezuela 2001-2004 --- The jury is still out as to exactly what the US did do and what we didn't do. One thing is for sure. Hugo Chavez is a diphorsehocky and I hope we do have his arse assasinated.

Iraq 2003-Present --- Invaded Iraq subsequent to 12 (or 13?) resolutions which Iraq failed to comply with by failing to account for the destruction of WMDs and WMD programs known to exist as late as 1998 (according to the Clinton Administration). So far, the post-war situation has been conducted less than adequately, but in all fairness the foreign terrorists are all, but nonexistent within the country, at this point. All that is left is massive sectarian violence. At one time, I was supportive of a democratic regime in Iraq, because I thought that the majority of Iraqis would embrace it, albeit with some reservations, but with all that is going on now, I think I liked it better when Saddam Hussein ruled the country and we just starved them economically.

Haiti 2004 --- When will this child ever straighten up?! STOP SMOKING CRACK! Humanitarian and peacekeeping effort y'all!


That oughta do it.

 

[JohnRM]

Agent Orange.

Agent Orange was not explicity a chemical weapon. Its purpose was as an herbicide and defoliant.

I am not grateful for the USA dragging Australian troops into the middle east, when they should be concentrating on more local affairs.

Sounds like you need to blame your government and your people for electing that government, not the US.

That wasn't a twist of words. Not at all.

I couldn't help it!

Do you seriously think that US has the same culture and historical expererience as Ireland, Britain, Germany, Italy, China or Spain?

Of course not, but we do have the benefit of combining all of it into what is now American culture. I just want someone to give me a detailed list of what we have to learn that others know and that we do not. Do you have anything specific to offer, in that regard?

 

[skadistic]

The stated reason for spraying the plants was that people were hiding in them. If people were not hiding in the plants there would have been no need to spray them. Therefore they were spraying the people hiding in the plants. OED?

NO. The VC was useing the jungle as cover. They sprayed the jungle to clear out the hiding places so the VC could not use the jungel as cover. They did not spray the places where they knew people were so they could spray the people. Most of the spraying was done in areas around foward batteries. to clear out enough jungle that an attacking force would have to clear open land when invading.


It wasn't sprayed where people were hiding it was sprayed before they were able to use that area as cover.

The VC hid mostly in tunnels anyway.

 

[Bugfatty300]

They knew it messed people up who were exposed to it. Not enough to use it for that express reason, but enough to be well aware there would be consequences. Hence the sucessful law suits in the US, NZ, Oz etc.

Actually they didn't. Any idiot knew it was toxic and not very good to be around (but so are a dozen things under your kitchen sink). They didn't know the terrible effects until 1971. Agent Orange in civilian form was still used in the US through out the war.

The stated reason for spraying the plants was that people were hiding in them. If people were not hiding in the plants there would have been no need to spray them. Therefore they were spraying the people hiding in the plants. OED?

The point was to deny the enemy cover and put space between them and our firebases, forward areas, ect. This was not done during battle. It was done inorder to prepare the terrain. The jungle was sprayed wether it was occupied by the enemy at that specific juncture or not.

 

[JohnRM]

Those unemployment figures don't mirror reality, though. Remember, compared to many of those countries, we have a massive amount of (mostly young men) in the military. Subtract around 80 - 90 percent of those in the military and them into the job/job search category. And then don't forget the, what, 1-2 million non violent drug offenders currently in prison into the mix. Then don't forget all those dependent on those in prison, massive institutions such as the DEA, parts of the ATF, etc... Then, also, don't forget that most of our jobs and job creation are "McJobs," and the numbers are not so rosy, more in line with Europe.

We are going to have to disagree. Some of what you talk about has some merit, but for the most part, it has no bearing on unemployment. You cannot count these individuals as jobless without their current situation, because if things were different, the economy would be different and there would be more jobs. The fact is that to scale, the US military size in proportion to its population is about the same as many European countries, so...if our troops count toward unemployment, so does Europe's.

 

[GinandTonic]

1 - I feel we are drifting off topic here

2 - Its 4-30am

3 - Ive run out of red-wine and tiramisu

4 - Personally I dont give a rats bottom how its characterized, for myself its a manslaughter deal - a view tacitly condoned when monsanto and dow settled out of court.

And so to bed

 

[warpus]

Damn..

I had a long post about all this but it ended up at the bottom of the last page because I was editing, because I'm high, blah blah

In any case, it's a great post and you should read it, because I think it's a sensible middle-ground in this interesting debate.

Thank you for your time and have a nice day.

 

[GenMarshall]

I am a grateful conservative American!

 

[Tenochtitlan]

I'm grateful that America is running the world instead of China, India, or Russia..

Having said that, America must look to its own interests first, instead of the interests of the rest of the world, and so, it is only logical that it is going to act against the interests of various countries around the world.. by installing puppet governments, invading, & sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, amongst other things, all of which is common knowledge, if you've studied any history at all.

I don't think people would hate the U.S. as much if it was a bit more honest about its foreign policy.

Instead of: "Spreading freedom around the world", how about "looking out for our own interests, most of the time".

With a lot more honesty and a little bit more good intent, the next invasion might get a bit more international support.

There is also the fact that America tends to leave one mess after another around the world, which is why it's often equated to previous powers that tried (or succeeded) to have some sort of world hegemony.. Soviet, British, French, German. You guys claim to be better that that.

You have good official intentions.. ie. "Spreading freedom and democracy"
but are in the end judged by your actions. ie. supporting coups and causing trouble

EDIT: I just re-read my post and it sounds a bit anti-American. Let me clarify that I would heavily criticize any country that had world hegemony of some sort.. be it the U.S., China, Russia, Norway, or Sealand. The U.S. would be pretty high up the list of countries (or groups of countries) that I would want to be in the charge of the world. If somebody has to be in charge of the world, the U.S. is a pretty good pick!

It's not that you guys are worse than the previous groups of guys who ran the world.. it's just that you're not as good as you claim you are.. you obviously have your own interests to look after.. would be nice if that was admitted from time to time

I would actually be delighted if right before the 2nd Gulf War the U.S. president went on TV and said: "Listen, we don't like this guy, we haven't liked him for a while, we'll have to take him out at one point or another.. before he develops nuclear weapons would be better! there's also oil there so that might help our economy and alleviate our energy needs... and as a side benefit we will attempt to turn Iraq into a democracy and use it as a temporary base to fight the war on terrorism. Thank you and God Bless America"

You're in the spotlight, so deal with the criticism. A lot of it is misguided but has roots in legitimate questions

Yeah.
The corporate interests of the US and UK at the expense of others.

 

[silver 2039]

Why should I be grateful to America? Not as if it has done anythign for me yet. VMaybe when I can vote and derive actual benefits....

 

[azzaman333]

Sounds like you need to blame your government and your people for electing that government, not the US.

Already do blame the government, but its not entirely their fault. US not in the Middle East, neither are the Aussie troops.

 

[Ball Lightning]

Not true. The United States has among the lowest levels of unemployment among the economic powers of the world, at 4.6% while nations in Europe are fairing much worse.

Now, as far as national debt goes, our debt stands at 64.7% of GDP.

The facts are that the United States went through nearly a dozen strong and damaging Hurricanes and other natural disasters, not the least of which was Hurricane Katrina. We had a pretty serious recession to deal with and we are also fighting a global war on terrorism. Even so, the federal deficit has shrunk to half of its projected total for this year so far and is expected to continue to decrease by significant rates as federal revenues continue to top new highs and the economy booms.

Sorry, your opinions are unfounded.

The US have the biggest debt in the world, it isn't that much of the total GNP so a point for you, but US have 'spread democracy' in many countries, most of the time by force.

 

[sonorakitch]

The US have the biggest debt in the world, it isn't that much of the total GNP so a point for you, but US have 'spread democracy' in many countries, most of the time by force.

Not most of the time, but certainly some of the time. Is this necessarily bad? Our invasion of Korea was to liberate the South, which then became a democracy. Do you think this was wrong? How about Kuwait? Liberating the country from the helm of Iraq restored democracy there too.

Really there are only a few occasions (you can count them on one hand) where military force was used to restore or install democracy. And most every occasion was supported by the international community via the UN.

So your comment is wrong I think.

~Chris

 

[Bugfatty300]

Already do blame the government, but its not entirely their fault. US not in the Middle East, neither are the Aussie troops.

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?

(OMG, I'm such a dork...)

 

[Margim]

I am grateful to past Americas. The ones that finally decided to step in and help countries that were being unjustly invaded back in World Wars.

I'm don't think that's the case with modern America. I also feel that its versions of democracy and commercialism are to agressive and unhelpful to many of its neighbours.

Certainly its disproportionate consumption of the worlds resources is hideous (as is ours... I'm not denying the downfalls of Australia's government here).

The rich nations of the world have a lot to answer for!!

 

[Ball Lightning]

Should we invade countries which effect us not at all. And these invasions would create people who do not like the US. Then these people might became terroists. These people shouldn't do that, but i partly blame the US formor goverment for terroists.

 

[Margim]

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?

(OMG, I'm such a dork...)

You're a dork? Yet I know where that quote comes from... where does that leave me?



Where are the lightsaber smilies?

 

[ainwood]

We tie with the UK in total donations and sit behind only Japan. When did economic aid become a tax of some kind, where we all have to give a certain percentage?

Context.

My post was in response to the sentiments of 'we give people aid, therefore they should like us'. My point was that a lot of other people give aid too.