As America pulls out from space, China prepares to go to the Moon

[Silurian]

So when the tech matures, and we have a practical use for it, go to the moon then. Nothing is gained by going before then

So the Chinese land on the moon in 2020
Start establishing a moon base in 2030
Chinese large scale prospecting and construction of outposts by 2040
Cost of space flight reduced by 2050 so USA goes back to the Moon to get all the bits where the Chinese have not established outposts

 

[Thoughtful Thug]

It is only a symbolic endeavor if China do succeed in sending men or women on the moon. If they start to do something ever more worthwhile - like colonizing the moon or placing some kind of a observatory, then we probably would see many nations, or multi-national corporations competing to settle as many places they can.

 

[Patroklos]

The funny thing is that people are actually talking about moon bases. The Chinese are in the stonage of space flight people, not the cusp of a brave new future.

 

[Silurian]

So was the USA in 1960

And the Chinese will benefit from a lot of the good work done by NASA, USSR and others since

 

[RedRalph]

Yeah, it seems to me that progress can be made very quickly in this area when a country really goes for it.

 

[Winner]

The stone age of spaceflight is the kind of suborbital "hops" the US presented as an answer to Gagarin's flight.

China now has:

a) a working spacecraft. People can sneer and jeer that it is just a carbon copy of the Soyuz (it isn't, although it borrowed many design principles from it), but so far it has performed well. The Chinese have announced that the next few flights will round off the testing and then they'll start to produce Shenzhou in series. And we know the Chinese are good at that.

b) a man-rated rocket booster. Which is a lot more than the US will have by this time next year. When the Shuttle is retired by the end of this year, the US will be left to rely solely on the Russians (whose workhorse spacecraft are now probably less advanced than the Chinese ones). Until the US builds its own spaceship and a rocket to lift it to space, it will actually be below China in terms of manned spaceflight.

c) a spacewalk-capable spacesuit. You need those if you want to assemble/repair larger constructions in space.

-- In very near-term future, China will also have:

d) more powerful rocket family (LM-5) to launch much heavy satellites and larger spacecraft

e) automated unmanned supply ships based on Shenzhou design

f) space laboratories (Tiangong) to test orbital docking and life support systems for the planned Mir-sized space station to be assembled in orbit around 2020.

---

In reality, if they succeed in all this, their manned space programme will break all development records. They will have gone from a nation incapable of putting man into space to a full-fledged space power in less than 2 decades.

And there is already talk about building a Saturn-V class heavy-lift booster. Heavy lift boosters are sort of holy grail of manned space exploration, because they make it much easier to do meaningful things beyond low-earth orbit.

China is clearly following a long term plan aimed at increasing its presence in space and exploiting it for its purposes. It's IMO very likely the Chinese will actively challenge the rest of the world and given all the resources they have at their disposal, they cannot be underestimated.

(Interesting article in spoiler tags. Slightly dated, but all the more poignant

Spoiler :

China Readies Military Space Station for 2010 Launch
By Craig Covault

posted: 09 March 2009
01:11 pm ET

China is aggressively accelerating the pace of its manned space program by developing a 17,000 lb. man-tended military space laboratory planned for launch by late 2010. The mission will coincide with a halt in U.S. manned flight with phase-out of the shuttle.

The project is being led by the General Armaments Department of the People's Liberation Army, and gives the Chinese two separate station development programs.

Shenzhou 8, the first mission to the outpost in early 2011 will be flown unmanned to test robotic docking systems. Subsequent missions will be manned to utilize the new pressurized module capabilities of the Tiangong outpost.

Importantly, China is openly acknowledging that the new Tiangong outpost will involve military space operations and technology development.

Also the fact it has been given a No. 1 numerical designation indicates that China may build more than one such military space laboratory in the coming years.

"The People's Liberation Army's General Armament Department aims to finish systems for the Tiangong-1 mission this year," says an official Chinese government statement on the new project. Work on a ground prototype is nearly finished.

The design, revealed to the Chinese during a nationally televised Chinese New Year broadcast, includes a large module with docking system making up the forward half of the vehicle and a service module section with solar arrays and propellant tanks making up the aft.

The concept is similar to manned concepts for Europe's Automated Transfer Vehicle.

While used as a target to build Chinese docking and habitation experience, the vehicle's military mission has some apparent parallels with the U.S. Air Force Manned Orbiting Laboratory (MOL) program cancelled in 1969 before it flew any manned missions. MOL's objectives were primarily reconnaissance and technology development.

While U.S. military astronauts were to be launched in a Gemini spacecraft atop their MOLs, in China's case, the module will operate autonomously and be visited periodically by Chinese astronauts, to perhaps retrieve reconnaissance imagery or other sensor data. At least one unmanned Shenzhou was equipped with a military space intelligence eavesdropping antenna array.

Along with launch of the outpost, China is also beginning mass production of Shenzhou taxi spacecraft, says Zhang Bainan, the chief Shenzhou design manager.

All previous Shenzhous have been built as individual custom spacecraft for widely spaced missions. But China is now moving to Shenzhou assembly line production to increase flight rates.

In addition to operational mission objectives the Chinese mission plans will provide a propaganda windfall in China and send a global geopolitical message relative to declining U.S. space leadership.

The Tiangong vehicle's debut in late 2010, and increase in Chinese manned mission flight rates will coincide with the planned termination of the U.S. space shuttle program and a five year hiatus in American manned space launches.

The first manned NASA Orion/Ares manned mission to Earth orbit is not likely until 2015 with manned lunar operations no earlier than 2020.

During that period China can rack up multiple attention getting missions, while Americans launched in the Russian Soyuz will draw meager attention unless they are involved in an emergency.

Along with the Tiangong announcement comes another major revelation — that China now has two manned space station programs under development.

• The new Tiangong series, that can be launched on the same type Long March 2F booster used to carry Soyuz-type Shenzhou manned transports.

• And a larger 20-25 ton "Mir class" station that will follow by about 2020 launched on the new oxygen/hydrogen powered Long March 5 boosters.

The Chinese have shown this editor numerous space station models and drawings during six trips to China over the last several years.

All of those concepts looked very similar to the Soviet Mir with a core and add-on modules-- nothing like the Tiangong just revealed in China.

The heavier Mir type design, however, is the one being pursued for launch on the new Long March 5, Liu Fang, vice president of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corp. (CASC) told me during a visit to Beijing last April. It will weigh twice as much as the man tended military outpost.

The Tiangong design is designed for short tasks or limited overnight stays in a pressurized shirtsleeve environment, while the heavier Chinese stations planned for several years from now will be for longer term habitation.

In addition to the manned program, the Chinese unmanned program has also reached a major milestone with the Chang'e lunar orbiter.

The spacecraft ended its 16 month science mission March 1 when commanded to fire thrusters to begin a 36 min. descent toward lunar impact at 0813 GMT.

The impact point was calculated to be at 1.50 deg. south latitude and 52.36 deg. east longitude. on the opposite side of the Moon from where the descent was begun.

Chang'e-1 began its retrofire maneuver for capture by lunar gravity at 0736 GMT under the command of two ground control stations, one at Qingdao in eastern China and the other at Kashi in northwest China.

The spacecraft had been launched from Xichang on board a Long March 3 on October 24, 2007 and used its imaging system to obtain mapping imagery of the entire moon.

It was command deorbited to provide Chinese engineers with experience in calculating and controlling the descent of a spacecraft in lunar orbit. Lunar "masscons", subsurface concentrations of heavy materials, can affect lunar gravity fields and orbital trajectories involved in deorbit.

This relates directly to China's follow on plan to land a nuclear powered unmanned lunar rover by 2012-2013 followed by an unmanned sample return mission about 2017.

In 2010-2011, before the rover and sample return missions are flown a Chinese-technology mission may be sent to the Moon to further demonstrate landing technologies. But the Chinese were not clear on whether it would go all the way to the surface.

If successful, these missions also could upstage U.S. lunar plans for a time.

 

[Winner]

So, the Moon is useless piece of rock, we know everything about it, there is no reason to go back... riiight?

The Mystery Of Moonwater

Moonwater. Look it up. You won't find it. It's not in the dictionary. That's because we thought, until recently, that the Moon was just about the driest place in the solar system. Then reports of moonwater started "pouring" in - starting with estimates of scant amounts on the lunar surface, then gallons in a single crater, and now 600 million metric tons distributed among 40 craters near the lunar north pole.

"We thought we understood the Moon, but we don't," says Paul Spudis of the Lunar and Planetary Institute. "It's clear now that water exists up there in a variety of concentrations and geologic settings. And who'd have thought that today we'd be pondering the Moon's hydrosphere?"

Spudis is principal investigator of NASA's Mini-SAR team - the group with the latest and greatest moonwater "strike." Their instrument, a radar probe on India's Chandrayaan-1, found 40 craters each containing water ice at least 2 meters deep.

"If you converted those craters' water into rocket fuel, you'd have enough fuel to launch the equivalent of one space shuttle per day for more than 2000 years. But our observations are just a part of an even more tantalizing story about what's going on up on the Moon."

It's the story of a lunar water cycle, and it's based on the seemingly disparate - but perhaps connectable - results from Mini-SAR and NASA's recent LCROSS mission and Moon Mineralogy Mapper (M3 or "M-cubed") instrument also on Chandrayaan-1.

"So far we've found three types of moonwater," says Spudis. "We have Mini-SAR's thick lenses of nearly pure crater ice, LCROSS's fluffy mix of ice crystals and dirt, and M-cube's thin layer that comes and goes all across the surface of the Moon."

On October 9, 2009, LCROSS, short for Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing Satellite, struck water in a cold, permanently dark crater at the lunar south pole. Since then, the science team has been thoroughly mining their data.

"It looks as though at least two different layers of our crater soil contain water, and they represent two different time epochs," explains Anthony Colaprete, LCROSS principal investigator. "The first layer, ejected in the first 2 seconds from the crater after impact, contains water and hydroxyl bound up in the minerals, and even tiny pieces of pure ice mixed in. This layer is a thin film and may be relatively 'fresh,' perhaps recently replenished."

According to Colaprete, this brand of moonwater resembles the moonwater M3 discovered last year in scant but widespread amounts, bound to the rocks and dust in the very top millimeters of lunar soil.

The second layer is different. "It contains even more water ice plus a treasure chest of other compounds we weren't even looking for," he says. "So far the tally includes sulfur dioxide (SO2), methanol (CH3OH), and the curious organic molecule diacetylene (H2C4). This layer seems to extend below at least 0.5 meters and is probably older than the ice we're finding on the surface."

They don't know why some craters contain loads of pure ice while others are dominated by an ice-soil mixture. It's probably a sign that the moonwater comes from more than one source.

"Some of the water may be made right there on the Moon," says Spudis. "Protons in the solar wind can make small amounts of water continuously on the lunar surface by interacting with metal oxides in the rocks. But some of the water is probably deposited on the Moon from other places in the solar system."

The Moon is constantly bombarded by impactors that add to the lunar water budget. Asteroids contain hydrated minerals, and comet cores are nearly pure ice.

The researchers also think that much of the crater water migrates to the poles from the Moon's warmer, lower latitudes. "All our findings are telling us there's an active water cycle on the Moon," marvels Colaprete.

Think about it. The "driest place in the solar system" has a water cycle.

"It's a different world up there," says Spudis, "and we've barely scratched the surface. Who knows what discoveries lie ahead?"

Moonwater. Add it to the dictionary.

Source

 

[RedRalph]

Even if apparently there is nothing there now we can use (and I'm not saying there is), who knows what might be useful to us one day? At one time, the Arabian desert looked like a place where no one was ever going to find anything they might need, but that changed. Same goes for the North Pole, yet now Russia, Norway, Canada etc are trying urgently to stake out claims.

It's amazing how little value some people put on exploration, given what site this is, and the fact that a casual glance at a history book will tell you how valuble exploring is.

 

[Winner]

Yes, very true.

I am quite surprised to see the American "been there, done that" mentality at work here; I thought a forum full of 'nerdy' guys would be more excited about these things. The history of American manned space exploration often resembles a roller-coaster ride - periods of intense activity followed by depression resulting in programme cancellations.

Just look it up how much they griped about the ISS. The one thing Obama got right in the latest wave of cancellations was to admit that de-orbiting the ISS in 2015 would be ridiculous - after spending 10 years and a huge amount of money building it, it would only be allowed to operate at full capacity for just over 5 years? Gods, I wonder how something like that could even be seriously considered

 

[ParkCungHee]

Winner, I suggest you should send a check in to NASA. They're always taking donations.

 

[RedRalph]

Me and Winner are starting our own space programme

 

[Winner]

Winner, I suggest you should send a check in to NASA. They're always taking donations.

If I ever wanted to do that, I'd rather send the money to ESA. Less bureaucracy, more common sense. Weird, usually it's the other way round when you're comparing national and international organizations...

 

[Patroklos]

Poor Winner...

Air Force's Secretive Space Plane Nears Maiden Voyage
By Leonard David
SPACE.com's Space Insider Columnist
posted: 22 October 2009
08:39 am ET

You would think that an unpiloted space plane built to rocket spaceward from Florida atop an Atlas booster, circle the planet for an extended time, then land on autopilot on a California runway would be big news. But for the U.S. Air Force X-37B project — seemingly, mum's the word.

There is an air of vagueness regarding next year's Atlas Evolved Expendable launch of the unpiloted, reusable military space plane. The X-37B will be cocooned within the Atlas rocket's launch shroud — a ride that's far from cheap.

While the launch range approval is still forthcoming, SPACE.com has learned that the U.S. Air Force has the X-37B manifested for an April 2010 liftoff.

As a mini-space plane, this Boeing Phantom Works craft has been under development for years. Several agencies have been involved in the effort, NASA as well as the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) and various arms of the U.S. Air Force.

Over the last few months, I've been in touch with DARPA, Boeing, the Pentagon, the U.S. Air Force Space Command, as well as NASA itself. Either you get a "not in our portfolio" or are given a "go to" pass to another agency. Just a few weeks ago, I even commandeered a face-to-face "no comment" from a top Pentagon official for Air Force space programs about X-37B.

Tight-lipped factor

The tight-lipped factor surrounding the space plane, its mission, and who is in charge is curious. Such a hush-hush factor seems to mimic in pattern that mystery communications spacecraft lofted last month aboard an Atlas 5 rocket, simply called PAN. Its assignment and what agency owns it remains undisclosed.

But in a brief burst of light eking from the new era of government transparency, I did score this comment from NASA.

While the program is now under the U.S. Air Force, NASA is looking forward to receiving data from the advanced technology work.

"NASA has a long history of involvement with the X-37 program. We continue to monitor and share information on technology developments," said Gary Wentz, chief engineer Science and Missions Systems Office at the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. "We are looking forward to a successful first flight and to receiving data from some advanced technologies of interest to us, such as thermal protection systems, guidance, navigation and control, and materials for autonomous re-entry and landing."

The vehicle itself is about 29 feet long with a roughly 15-foot wingspan and weighs in at over five tons at liftoff. Speeding down from space, the craft would likely make use of Runway 12/30 — 15,000 feet long by 200 feet wide — at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California.

Vandenberg serves as an emergency space shuttle landing strip, as a second backup after California's Edwards Air Force Base – which has also been noted as a landing spot for the X-37B.

Once in orbit, what such a vehicle might enable depends on the eye of the beholder. Intelligence gathering, kicking off small satellites, testing space gear are feasible duties, as is developing reusable space vehicle technologies.

Space test platform

Just last month, a U.S. Air Force fact sheet noted that the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO), located in Washington, D.C. "is working on the X-37B Orbital Test Vehicle to demonstrate a reliable, reusable, unmanned space test platform for the United States Air Force."

The mission of the RCO is to expedite development and fielding of select Department of Defense combat support and weapon systems by leveraging defense-wide technology development efforts and existing operational capabilities.

"The problem with it [X37-B] is whether you see it as a weapons platform," said Theresa Hitchens, former head of the Center for Defense Information's Space Security Program, now Director of the United Nations Institute for Disarmament Research (UNIDIR) in Geneva, Switzerland.

"It then becomes, if I am not mistaken, a Global Strike platform. There are a lot of reasons to be concerned about Global Strike as a concept," Hitchens told SPACE.com.

The implications of the program as a possible space weapon are surely not lost on potential U.S. competitors, Hitchens said, who may well see anti-satellites (ASATs) as a leveler.

"Would this thing be vulnerable to ASATs? Yes, if it stayed on orbit any length of time," Hitchens added. "While I see value of such a platform as a pop-up reconnaissance or even communications platform, if weaponized it becomes yet another reason for other nations to consider building dangerous ASATs," she cautioned.

Another mission question is, to what extent the X-37B might play into the recent announcement that NASA is partnering with the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory to develop a technology roadmap for the commercial reusable launch vehicle, or RLV, industry.

All that said, and after years in the making, the X-37B is approaching its first globe-trotting, milestone making and historic flight – that much is known.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/091022-x37b-testlaunch.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37



So we now have an active test bed for a viable spacecraft TODAY. But hey, China has plans to maybe do something perhaps at the ealiest a decade from now. I guess thats the same thing, right? OH NOES THE US HAS ABANDONED SPACE!!!!

 

[RedRalph]

Why do you keep pretending that anyone said the US was behind China, Patroklos? You do know everyone can just read back through the thread and see that no one is saying that, don't you?

 

[Patroklos]

Perhaps you missed the title of this thread:

As America pulls out from space, China prepares to go to the Moon

Winner is very much of the opinion China is RAPIDLY overtaking the US and everyone else for that matter as far as space programs go. The fact that observed reality contradicts him at every corner is lost on him.

 

[Winner]

Will you stop this childish nonsense, Patroklos? Try to THINK OBJECTIVELY for one moment, put off all that USA#1 crap, and focus on the content of my posts, before you write something or quote an article. Can you do that?

It would also help to read the articles you're quoting as if they were supposed to somehow disprove what I said

Just last month, a U.S. Air Force fact sheet noted that the Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO), located in Washington, D.C. "is working on the X-37B Orbital Test Vehicle to demonstrate a reliable, reusable, unmanned space test platform for the United States Air Force."

What this spaceplane is, essentially, is a reusable satellite capable of landing back on Earth with its payload (which is a secret, of course, probably some military spying stuff).

It's unmanned. It's not even operated under NASA. It changes absolutely nothing on the fact that by the next year, the US will be without manned spaceflight capability, whereas China will retain it and expand it.

Now tell me what the heck were you thinking when you were writing the last post.

 

[Patroklos]

Will you stop this childish nonsense, Patroklos? Try to THINK OBJECTIVELY for one moment, put off all that USA#1 crap, and focus on the content of my posts, before you write something or quote an article. Can you do that?

As soon as you stop hand waving everything multiple posters have provided for you to not only show the US and other nation's space agencies are not "abandoning space" bar are not even falling behind, and pretending the nationalism inspired stunts of China are anything other than that, nationalism inspired stunts.

It would also help to read the articles you're quoting as if they were supposed to somehow disprove what I said

I did, which is why I know it blows your OP out of the water just like the fact that Kepler and James Web Telescopes exist, all three of these projectes being so far beyond the abilities of the Chinese as to make announcement of them reaching parity or even closing the gap absurd.

What this spaceplane is, essentially, is a reusable satellite capable of landing back on Earth with its payload (which is a secret, of course, probably some military spying stuff).

It's unmanned. It's not even operated under NASA. It changes absolutely nothing on the fact that by the next year, the US will be without manned spaceflight capability, whereas China will retain it and expand it.

1.) It is a test bed, the idea that the testing phases of any manned flight project would be manned configured let alone acutally manned is absurd.

So when do the Chinese test their moon mission components? I mean, since you seem to think they are closing the gap so quick, surely they have something concrete as opposed to just a figment of their imagination?

2.) A few years without manned flight is inconsequential, and you are simply appealing to an emotional arguement whenever you bring it up. I assume is based on an absurd assumption that manned space flight is always required regardless of actual circumstances, a position doomed to failure.

However, I am open to you pointing out which of NASA's current objectives and missions are not going to happen because of the gap.

3.) You pointing to China throwing some 1960's tech era capsules into space is irrelevant. They can not do anything with them of merit that we have either not already done or can do better with other instruments.

Now tell me what the heck were you thinking when you were writing the last post.

That this project, along with dozens others that myself and other posters have listed, makes a farce out of your thread title.

 

[Winner]

As soon as you stop hand waving everything multiple posters have provided for you to not only show the US and other nation's space agencies are not "abandoning space" or even falling behind, and pretending the nationalism inspired stunts of China are anything other than that, nationalism inspired stunts.

So you don't realize you're arguing against a super-strawmanized version of what this thread is about? That is MANNED space exploration? (as I keep accentuating to no avail...)

I did, which is why I know it blows your OP out of the water just like the fact that Kepler and James Web Telescopes exist, all three of these projectes being so far beyond the abilities of the Chinese as to make announcement of them reaching parity or even closing the gap absurd.

This is so surreal. OK, perhaps you don't know what "manned" means - it is when humans (the bipedal ape species we both belong to... I hope) fly to space and do stuff there. This is the focus of this thread, so either accept it, or get out and post your OT somewhere else.

1.) It is a test bed, the idea that the testing phases of any manned flight project would be manned configured let alone acutally manned is absurd.

Great, so my point stands - it changes nothing on the fact that the US is set to lose its manned spaceflight capability and that thanks to Obama's proposal, it will not recover it any time soon.

2.) A few years without manned flight is inconsequential, and you are simple appealing to an emotional arguement whenever you bring it up. I assume is based on an absurd assumption that manned space flight is always required regardless of actual circumstances, a position doomed to failure.

The "a few years" part is going to get longer than previously thought, judging from how things are going. Orion was supposed to be the replacement for Shuttle. Obama wants to cancel it and if he succeeds, there will be no "plan B". Even if SpaceX manages to send its crewed version of the Dragon capsule, it will still be a rather primitive tin can barely capable of LEO flight. Orion is/was designed for deep space missions, so it has radiation/meteoroid shielding, robust life support system, autonomous docking capability, etc.

If there's something doomed to failure, it's your belief that this USAF toy is an embryonic stage of a new Space Shuttle.

However, I am open to you pointing out which of NASA's current objectives and missions are not going to happen because of the gap.

3.) You pointing to China throwing some 1960's tech era capsules into space is irrelevant.

If you want to refer to Shenzhou as "1960s tech era capsule", then you're simply ignoring the reality, as usual. Condescending attitude isn't a good basis of a rational argument.

They can not do anything with them of merit that we have either not already done or can do better with other instruments.

You've not been reading again, have you? If China decides to go to the Moon, it will most likely use Shenzhou, or a version of it. This means it has the capability. The US won't have anything even close to that once it retires the Shuttle. Hence the thread title.

That this project, along with dozens others that myself and other posters have listed, makes a farce out of your thread title.

Dozens? I don't recall anybody but you and your funny attempts to pose unmanned science/military projects as manned spaceflight capability. Although there are other people who are somewhat 'slow' in understanding the main point, you're the only one who've failed to understand it altogether.

 

[Patroklos]

So you don't realize you're arguing against a super-strawmanized version of what this thread is about? That is MANNED space exploration? (as I keep accentuating to no avail...)

Thats funny, as your title says nothing to limit your accusation to manned space flight.

Interestingly enough, your OP doesn't either...

"Go China. Someone needs to show those bloody democratic politicians that there is a price to pay for cuts in space exploration budgets

It strikes me that the name the Chinese gave to their rockets - Long March (after the commie ordeal in 1930s) - is fitting. Chinese don't do things in the American way, with pomp and spotlights. They don't get excited, do great things, and then stop just because the public lost interest or the politicians needed the money elsewhere. Their progress in space is a like a tsunami, a low-profile, but relentless wave.

They're still far behind other space powers. If the US, Europe and even Russia committed enough money to the project, they could return to the Moon in less than a decade. But they won't because they're crippled by budget cuts, political bickering and a lack of long-term vision for space exploration. That's why China will win. I almost hope it does, because the rest of the world needs a wake-up call."

Isn't that WIERD, how despite your many quibbles to the contrary you make no attempt to restrict the accusation in the thread title to manned space flight. To be sure you mention a manned mission, but you do it to condemn all space exploration.

You said it, but if you wish to repudiate your OP I'm game

This is so surreal. OK, perhaps you don't know what "manned" means - it is when humans (the bipedal ape species we both belong to... I hope) fly to space and do stuff there. This is the focus of this thread, so either accept it, or get out and post your OT somewhere else.

Unfortunetly, this whole "manned focused" thing is not the focus of this thread as the title and OP clearly show. Its simply where you retreated to once it was pointed out to you that the Chinese moon objectives were of no importance and that the other space agencies were pursuing real science in spades.

Great, so my point stands - it changes nothing on the fact that the US is set to lose its manned spaceflight capability and that thanks to Obama's proposal, it will not recover it any time soon.

That wasn't your point. Your point was that that US was about to "pull out of space" and this would make China the future of space exploration. This would be despite the dozens of projects mentioned to you to include space telescopes, a space station, and many probes and landers each of which by itself is more important and productive than the entirety of the Chinese space program (even including their speculated moon mission).

The "a few years" part is going to get longer than previously thought, judging from how things are going. Orion was supposed to be the replacement for Shuttle. Obama wants to cancel it and if he succeeds, there will be no "plan B". Even if SpaceX manages to send its crewed version of the Dragon capsule, it will still be a rather primitive tin can barely capable of LEO flight. Orion is/was designed for deep space missions, so it has radiation/meteoroid shielding, robust life support system, autonomous docking capability, etc.

And as you have been told many times, by many people, whether or not NASA is capable of deep space missions at this time is irrelevant. They are not needed, and NASA is focused on other projects that are have actual significance to science.

China going to the moon is about as usuful as building airships, there is no purpose to it even if moon missions and airshios are feaking awesome!

If there's something doomed to failure, it's your belief that this USAF toy is an embryonic stage of a new Space Shuttle.

You mean this physical object already on the pad poised for a historic mission in less than a month? That is doomed to failure why?

Why are we giving what is as of right now a figment of someone's imaginiation, or in other words the Chinese moon mission, a better chance that on hand assets?

If you want to refer to Shenzhou as "1960s tech era capsule", then you're simply ignoring the reality, as usual. Condescending attitude isn't a good basis of a rational argument.

Please tell me what capabilities the Shenzhou can do that any capsule form the 1960s couldn't.

Let me summarize the capabilities of all of them:

1.) get to space
2.) Have a door dudes can walk out of and take pictures.

Sounds like the Chinese plan to add a docking capability, this is not currently available.

You've not been reading again, have you? If China decides to go to the Moon, it will most likely use Shenzhou, or a version of it. This means it has the capability. The US won't have anything even close to that once it retires the Shuttle. Hence the thread title.

Wow, they are going to put a man capable box on a rocket, or in other words exactly what the US did. Amazing.

The moon capability is in the rocket and lander attached to it, the fact that they may reuse Shenzhou (more likely a very modified version of it) is irrelevant. The point is the Shenzhou is NOT capable of anything other than LEO activities, and is pretty much incapable of doing anything useful while engaged in them.

Dozens? I don't recall anybody but you and your funny attempts to pose unmanned science/military projects as manned spaceflight capability. Although there are other people who are somewhat 'slow' in understanding the main point, you're the only one who've failed to understand it altogether.

Yes dozens. I myself have mentioned the ISS, Hubble, Kepler and Webb. Several here have alluded to numerous unmanned probes. All of which, again, are more impressive individually than the entiretly of the Chinese space program including their speculative moon mission.

 

[Winner]

This is pointless. Learn to read, for Christ sake - there are 10 pages of posts in this thread.

You simply looked at the title, misunderstood the meaning, and now you're talking OT because you simply can't admit you were wrong. It's also painfully clear your knowledge in the area of spaceflight and space exploration in general is nearly non-existent.