As America pulls out from space, China prepares to go to the Moon

[Winner]

I don't know, maybe actually learn to organize and coordinate long missions and live in space?

Oh, there is a LOT we can do on the Moon. Most important part is to build up industrial infrastructure that will aid us in further exploration of the Solar System.

Recently it was confirmed that the Moon has a lot of water near its poles. (Here's one good reason to land few geologists there to find out more.) If this water can be mined, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible, it can literally fuel further human expansion in space.

Launching anything from lunar surface into orbit is 22 times easier than launching it from the Earth. Thus, with relatively little effort, we could produce fuel on the Moon and then transport it to Earth-Moon Lagrange point(s) or the low-Earth orbit (LEO).

Of course there are other things you can produce - metals like aluminium, even platinum. Even if there was no water at all, lunar rocks are mostly oxygen, which makes up roughly 90% of rocket fuel mass. Moon is also a good place for space telescopes (no atmosphere), all kinds of geologic research and most importantly, a place very close to home where we can develop techniques necessary for living on other planetary bodies.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the proximity of Luna makes it easier to engage the private sector there. Once the initial infrastructure is set up by governmental space agencies, stuff like cargo/crew transportation, food production, mining, habitat construction, etc., can be outsourced to commercial subjects - and the governments would thus be free their hands to pursue the Mars programme, with the benefit of the experience and fuel gained on the Moon.


Mark my words: Ignoring the Moon will cost us all dearly.

 

[Lillefix]

Personally I can find no real advantage on spending billions on space travel. If America ends up in 2nd/3rd place the question is so what?

It helps keep unemployment down . Not to mention all the R&D on Military spending that has been transfered to the Civilian market.
And before someone comes in and points all the R&D NASA has done and how some of it has been transfered to the real world (Look at Formula 1 racing). Wouldn't the money be more effective in funding R&D in Universities & maybe fusion power for instance?

Talking about fusion power. An important part of fusion research is Helium 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_3. And there's almost none on earth and quite a bit on the moon.

Now we just have to watch out for the big blue people on the moon.

 

[Winner]

Personally I can find no real advantage on spending billions on space travel. If America ends up in 2nd/3rd place the question is so what?

Reminds me of one NASA employee. He said:

"The Mars Pathfinder probe cost roughly the same as the film Waterworld... but we learnt an awful lot more from it!"

Seriously, space exploration is such a TINY item in terms of overall global government spending, that arguing with money is doomed to failure. It's not about the money, it's about the absence of politicians' brains - they would rather spend it all on yet another "let's buy off our voters so that we win the elections" welfare programme.

Here's how I see it - if we want to sustain our civilization here on Earth, we'll have to tap into space resources one day. The sooner we do it, the better. So, every penny spent in space is actually a penny that will help Earth in the future. It's an investment, unlike all the money being shoved into the black hole of 'defence spending'.

 

[Grimz101]

Talking about fusion power. An important part of fusion research is Helium 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_3. And there's almost none on earth and quite a bit on the moon.

Now we just have to watch out for the big blue people on the moon.

I support space exploration, but just by the private sector.

In relation to what Winner said, I agree with it; but the fact is at the moment its not viable. We do not have a space ladder & launching into space as you know costs thousands of dollars per kilogram. Regarding launching man space missions there isn't going to be a huge benefit from doing so. Added to that sending probes would be a whole lot cheaper and better.

Edit:
We've got 5 billion years until the Sun engulfs our planet.. there's no rush .

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

You do know this is just grandstanding to show off China's status as the new "superpower" on the block, right? Any benefits to mankind's overall scientific and technological knowledge will be marginal at best. Never thought you'd be one to support such nationalistic chest-thumping that one would normally expect from such distinguished leaders like Chavez and Ahmadinejad.

 

[Winner]

Talking about fusion power. An important part of fusion research is Helium 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_3. And there's almost none on earth and quite a bit on the moon.

Now we just have to watch out for the big blue people on the moon.

I don't want to undermine an argument of my ally in this discussion but He3 doesn't seem to be of much importance. It likely won't be economical to mine (too dispersed, you'd have to sift through millions of tons of regolith to produce one ton of He3 - which can't be used in 'conventional' fusion reactors anyway).

In a more distant future, perhaps, as a by-product of other mining activities, but then, there is a lot more of it in the atmospheres of the gas giants, so they seem to be better sources of this resource. BTW, Uranus and Neptune are blue, so blue people aren't entirely out of question

 

[Winner]

You do know this is just grandstanding to show off China's status as the new "superpower" on the block, right? Any benefits to mankind's overall scientific and technological knowledge will be marginal at best. Never thought you'd be one to support such nationalistic chest-thumping that one would normally expect from such distinguished leaders like Chavez and Ahmadinejad.

Of course it will be a huge boost to China's national prestige, but if it ends with a permanent Chinese base on the Moon, it will give the Chinese a head-start in further expansion in space - to the asteroids, for example. China is resource-hungry and they're not denying they want to obtain some resources in space, eventually.

Unless China blows up after they put a man on the Moon, I seriously doubt they'll abandon it like the Americans did. They're not that st... uhm, short-sighted.

 

[Grimz101]

Of course it will be a huge boost to China's national prestige, but if it ends with a permanent Chinese base on the Moon, it would give the Chinese a head-start in further expansion in space - to the asteroids, for example. China is resource-hungry and they're not denying they want to obtain them in space, eventually.

Unless China blows up after they put a man on the Moon, I seriously doubt they'll abandon it like the Americans did. They're not that st... uhm, short-sighted.

There's lots of Asteroids, not to mention the fact that all the technology required I doubt I'll live to see in my lifetime & I'm 19. Added to that you know everything isn't so black & white, theres so many different variables to consider. Will the United States & PRC even exist in 100 years?

 

[bhsup]

I have no wish to go to sleep under the light of a communist moon

So we've got less than 10 years at best to get back up there and militarize it to prevent them from landing.

 

[storealex]

Who cares about the moon? Maybe we should start not destroying our own planet for a change, before we go elsewhere. So far, the technology needed to colonise/mine/use the moon efficiently dosn't exist. So let's stay here, live in harmony with mother nature and all that, while developing our technology so we might one day go to the moon for a purpose, not just to say we did it.

 

[Gustave5436]

I don't know, maybe actually learn to organize and coordinate long missions and live in space?

We already know how from so many plans and simulations of what a Mars mission would entail. The problem isn't lack of knowledge or technical expertise, it is funds.

Talking about fusion power. An important part of fusion research is Helium 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium_3. And there's almost none on earth and quite a bit on the moon.

Now we just have to watch out for the big blue people on the moon.

The current focus for first-generation fusion reactors is deuterium-tritium. He-3 may come later, but we need to get the basic engineering principles for a practical reactor down first, before investing resources into trying to practically harvest a resource thinly spread out over the entire surface area of the Moon.

Who cares about the moon? Maybe we should start not destroying our own planet for a change, before we go elsewhere. So far, the technology needed to colonise/mine/use the moon efficiently dosn't exist. So let's stay here, live in harmony with mother nature and all that, while developing our technology so we might one day go to the moon for a purpose, not just to say we did it.

It does exist in theory, and the only way that theory is going to be put into practice is if we actually go there (or, better yet, Mars/the asteroid belt). Economical industrialization of space, however, will probably not be viable in the next couple decades, but it will take time to develop the necessary infrastructure anyway.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Of course it will be a huge boost to China's national prestige, but if it ends with a permanent Chinese base on the Moon, it will give the Chinese a head-start in further expansion in space - to the asteroids, for example. China is resource-hungry and they're not denying they want to obtain some resources in space, eventually.

The key word is "eventually". From what I've heard, they only plan to go to the moon. Not much details on followup after that. And from an economic point of view, it's far cheaper to negotiate resource deals with Africa and South America. That also has the advantage of boosting their influence in said areas. Hell, I've even read about Chinese investment in a planned chromite mine here in Ontario. And what if their economy stops expanding after that?

 

[Benefactor]

ESA should race them there, we need an independent manned launcher fast. Then build some sort of nuclear powered space battleship to blow the Chinese up and take the lead .

 

[Winner]

Who cares about the moon? Maybe we should start not destroying our own planet for a change, before we go elsewhere. So far, the technology needed to colonise/mine/use the moon efficiently dosn't exist. So let's stay here, live in harmony with mother nature and all that, while developing our technology so we might one day go to the moon for a purpose, not just to say we did it.

It will sure as hell never exist if we don't take our heads out of our... you know what. If we sit here and wait for some major breakthrough that will allow us to miraculously teleport to the Moon for no cost, we're almost guaranteed to stagnate.

The same goes to the space elevator fans - nice idea, but we'll never be able to build it without building extensive space infrastructure first.

---

Seriously, the lack of a long term vision for humanity among the members of this forum depresses me

What's even worse, a lot of people seem to have this strange idea that space exploration/colonization and environmental sanity are somehow mutually exclusive; that if we go to space, we automatically give up on the Earth. Gods know where this nonsense comes from, I don't.

---

This short-sightedness reminds me of a story I read somewhere. IIRC, it was about a discussion taking place during a committee session in the US congress. NASA wanted more money for new weather satellites and was explaining the benefits, when a congressman interrupted and asked why do they need to launch expensive satellites, when all it takes to learn about the weather is to turn on the TV and see the weather forecast.

The poor fellow didn't have the slightest idea that these forecasts are based on data gathered by the satellites.

With people like this making the decisions, it's no wonder we're not moving forward...

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

In global history at school they were talking about some sort of treaty that prevents space from being militarized. And the teacher also mentioned something about not sending nuclear waste up there in rockets because we don't know what's out there. And I said "We wouldn't want to piss off any aliens up there." For reasons I don't know this made the entire class start to laugh.

 

[Harvin87]

No wonder why...

 

[Joecoolyo]

It will sure as hell never exist if we don't take our heads out of our... you know what. If we sit here and wait for some major breakthrough that will allow us to miraculously teleport to the Moon for no cost, we're almost guaranteed to stagnate.

The same goes to the space elevator fans - nice idea, but we'll never be able to build it without building extensive space infrastructure first.

---

Seriously, the lack of a long term vision for humanity among the members of this forum depresses me

What's even worse, a lot of people seem to have this strange idea that space exploration/colonization and environmental sanity are somehow mutually exclusive; that if we go to space, we automatically give up on the Earth. Gods know where this nonsense comes from, I don't.

---

This short-sightedness reminds me of a story I read somewhere. IIRC, it was about a discussion taking place during a committee session in the US congress. NASA wanted more money for new weather satellites and was explaining the benefits, when a congressman interrupted and asked why do they need to launch expensive satellites, when all it takes to learn about the weather is to turn on the TV and see the weather forecast.

The poor fellow didn't have the slightest idea that these forecasts are based on data gathered by the satellites.

With people like this making the decisions, it's no wonder we're not moving forward...

Nobody's "short-sided" here, it's just that everyone already knows that going to the Moon now is absolutely useless. There is no purpose, or point. And don't give me crap like, "oh, the Chinese are going to build a base there a get a head start!!!", because I doubt they have the technology to keep one sustained (I doubt we have the technology to keep one sustained).

The best rout for humanities future in space is the one we're taking now, using probes to discover and study areas that will actually be beneficial to humans in the future. I mean we still have a satellite going to Pluto to study it, can China do that? Or are they sticking to what America did in 1969 just for prestige reasons?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

The reason they don't send nuclear waste is because there is a risk that the rocket will explode in the atmosphere.

Firing nuclear waste into the sun would be a good solution otherwise

 

[sonorakitch]

It was inevitable:



Go China. Someone needs to show those bloody democratic politicians that there is a price to pay for cuts in space exploration budgets

It strikes me that the name the Chinese gave to their rockets - Long March (after the commie ordeal in 1930s) - is fitting. Chinese don't do things in the American way, with pomp and spotlights. They don't get excited, do great things, and then stop just because the public lost interest or the politicians needed the money elsewhere. Their progress in space is a like a tsunami, a low-profile, but relentless wave.

They're still far behind other space powers. If the US, Europe and even Russia committed enough money to the project, they could return to the Moon in less than a decade. But they won't because they're crippled by budget cuts, political bickering and a lack of long-term vision for space exploration. That's why China will win. I almost hope it does, because the rest of the world needs a wake-up call.

Dude....didn't you watch the olympics? Know what Jin Mao is? The Chinese love flashy displays. It is deep into their culture.

If they want to go to the moon (something we did 40+ years ago), that's cool. Let 'em have their day on the moon.

~Chris

 

[storealex]

It will sure as hell never exist if we don't take our heads out of our... you know what. If we sit here and wait for some major breakthrough that will allow us to miraculously teleport to the Moon for no cost, we're almost guaranteed to stagnate....

Meanwhile, computertechnology as well as engines, miningtools and composite materials are only getting more advanced. We're not in a hurry, and while we wait, stuff we need is getting better and cheaper. So let's not spend our money on this now, in the middle of the most serious crisis in a long time, but focus on it when we have more money and cheaper/better technology.

What's even worse, a lot of people seem to have this strange idea that space exploration/colonization and environmental sanity are somehow mutually exclusive; that if we go to space, we automatically give up on the Earth. Gods know where this nonsense comes from, I don't

Since Im the only one who brought up this issue, I assume you mean Im included in "A lot of people". In that case, nice way of putting words into my mouth.
Im just saying it's cheaper to enhance sustainability and resource recykling on Earth, and by that getting richer, than it is to take advantage of the resources on the Moon and by that getting richer. Our focus should be on learning how to live on Eart, without ruining it.