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Cheezy: what is the official position of the CPUS? Do you have the text?

The following article by our chairman should serve this function well. Keep in mind that it was written in 2005, so some of the things he talks about are a bit dated (combating the Bush league of neocons, and such), but overall the strategy remains the same for the time being.

Reflections on Socialism

For further information, I submit to you our excellently designed website. It's our primary gateway for new and prospective members, so we keep it pretty and functional and stuff.

http://www.cpusa.org/
 
Those Reflections on Socialism will take a while to read.
 
Yes, but I can't stare for too long at a text in a computer, not with that white background and not this late at night. I'll read the rest tomorrow.
 
If the world economy was to implode overnight and the governments collapse, how would you go about developing a communist society?
(Or would you even try and develope a Communist society in those conditions?)
 
If the world economy was to implode overnight and the governments collapse, how would you go about developing a communist society?
(Or would you even try and develope a Communist society in those conditions?)
I think that communism has to come about through class conflict, and that it requires the organisation of the proletariat as a political subject. No such subject exists at present, so I don't think that this scenario presents an opportunity for communism. However, the collapse of the world economy and the bourgeois state would create a space for such a subject to emerge, with the inevitable destitution of huge swathes of the working class compelling them towards class conflict, and the collapse of the state making it far more difficult for what's left of the ruling class to oppose it.
 
I think that communism has to come about through class conflict, and that it requires the organisation of the proletariat as a political subject. No such subject exists at present, so I don't think that this scenario presents an opportunity for communism. However, the collapse of the world economy and the bourgeois state would create a space for such a subject to emerge, with the inevitable destitution of huge swathes of the working class compelling them towards class conflict, and the collapse of the state making it far more difficult for what's left of the ruling class to oppose it.

Have you ever considered the possibility that the proletarians should simply declare independence (from capitalism) and become economically independent? Right now, working class people - often willingly, though usually unconsciously - support the capitalists by buying goods made by their companies and taking debts and wage jobs to pay for the goods they want or need right now. Shouldn't they get started immediately and get organised by growing own foods and making the good they need themselves? Or do you believe that's part of the class conflict?
 
Is such a declaration of independence really "simple"? The state still exists to enforce capitalist property relations, which it would be impossible to support any significant population without either coming to terms with or actively challenging. It would take a huge chunk of the population "quitting" capitalism to force the system towards collapse, and I'm highly sceptical that the means to keep such a population out of poverty without confronting the ruling class exist, especially given that it's barely possible to keep most them out of poverty within capitalism.

If you take the former route, then you haven't achieved independence from capital, merely independence within its terms. Better working conditions, a more democratic economy, but at the end of the day the same universe of money, rent and wages. If the latter, then you're going to have to confront the inevitably violent state response, a confrontation which if it survives will sooner or later amount to nothing less than social revolution, so you're back to the problem of developing a political subject capable of carrying out that confrontation.
 
Is such a declaration of independence really "simple"? The state still exists to enforce capitalist property relations, which it would be impossible to support any significant population without either coming to terms with or actively challenging. It would take a huge chunk of the population "quitting" capitalism to force the system towards collapse, and I'm highly sceptical that the means to keep such a population out of poverty without confronting the ruling class exist, especially given that it's barely possible to keep most them out of poverty within capitalism.

If you take the former route, then you haven't achieved independence from capital, merely independence within its terms. Better working conditions, a more democratic economy, but at the end of the day the same universe of money, rent and wages. If the latter, then you're going to have to confront the inevitably violent state response, a confrontation which if it survives will sooner or later amount to nothing less than social revolution, so you're back to the problem of developing a political subject capable of carrying out that confrontation.

Founding self-sustaining communes is legal, even under the current arrangement. In fact, Israel already has them with its system of Kibbutzim. But I guess the inhibitions towards inplementing such a system elsewhere would be to get the land you'll need to build such communes on, am I right?
 
Pretty much. The world isn't big or empty enough to run away from capitalism.
 
What kind of technological advancements not yet avaliable,you(reds) think it'll be necessary to implement a better version of a Socialist or Communist society(or something similar) than the alternatives it has been tried before?
 
None, it can be done just as we are…
 
Does any of you commies believe that debts are the main reason a capitalist economy is sustained?
 
Do you think a capitalist economy of this style could be sustained without debts? Debts are another name for loans, one side gives, the other owes. And any capitalist will tell you that without financing this present economic setup wouldn't exist.
 
Have you ever considered the possibility that the proletarians should simply declare independence (from capitalism) and become economically independent? Right now, working class people - often willingly, though usually unconsciously - support the capitalists by buying goods made by their companies and taking debts and wage jobs to pay for the goods they want or need right now. Shouldn't they get started immediately and get organised by growing own foods and making the good they need themselves? Or do you believe that's part of the class conflict?

There is a concept called social relations of production, which is quite central to Marxist thought and which is a pretty Hegelian concept.

Does any of you commies believe that debts are the main reason a capitalist economy is sustained?

Yeah, I guess, though I think it's more interest rather than debt per se.
 
Founding self-sustaining communes is legal, even under the current arrangement. In fact, Israel already has them with its system of Kibbutzim. But I guess the inhibitions towards inplementing such a system elsewhere would be to get the land you'll need to build such communes on, am I right?

Theoretically it should be possible to just do something like that. In practice it isn't for a variety of reasons:
- institutional bias for the status quo, mainly built into property rights - not just buying land or amassing the capital to pay for for machinery, education/training and necessary materials, but the wide (and currently fast-expanding array) of legal monopolies barring entry into businesses.
- organizational difficulties: 1) people do not necessarily care to think in the long-term, or not all people are inclined to do so, and declaring this kind of independence would require taking risks and making sacrifices; 2) those who have the most to bring into the table (more experience, more capital) are the ones who are relatively better-off in capitalist society and may expect that their leverage there will give them a greater pay-off. Etc.
- possible "political" instability of cooperative associations: even if they do give better odds of economic returns to the average worker, through a more equal sharing of the products of work, the issue of how to distribute power remains. That was the one which has kept "the left" internally divided from the start.

They're not insurmountable: socialists or communists can capture political power and change laws to weaken or the disband legal monopolies of the plutocracy in a variety of ways; they can put their differences aside to successfully campaign for trying a communist organization of production (though those differences are likely to return later), and someone may yet come up with some power-sharing idea both workable and agreeable to most people. But they are not easy to solve!

There is, though, one reason for optimist: every other alternative (that I can think off, at least) is riddled with as many or more tensions and conflicts. Get a society with enough material wealth and only the distribution of power remains a problem, wealth in a society of abundance may even become meaningless as a measure of status or a tool of power. The optimistic view that socialism is inevitable as a result of technical progress seems likely to me, even if the speed of progress is disappointing. It anything will stand in its way it is not lack of resources, but opposition to its full use by those who would have scarcity remain so as to preserve a social order where status and power are measured in terms of control of (artificially) scarce resources...
 
Do you think a capitalist economy of this style could be sustained without debts? Debts are another name for loans, one side gives, the other owes. And any capitalist will tell you that without financing this present economic setup wouldn't exist.

Yeah, I guess, though I think it's more interest rather than debt per se.

Actually, I was indeed referring more to interest than to debts per sé. But they indeed answered my question, thanks.
 
Well, I just took interest as part of the 'loan' concept, because, if money is always being slightly depreciated, then obviously by the time you get back you need an extra to compensate for that as well as another extra for profit.
 
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