Do you often meet any cynical soldiers, or do most believe in the country/Cause etc?
Ask a Soldier
- Thread starter Flying Pig
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Uncle Anton
Lighthorseman
<hijack>
Most of us believe in our respective countries to one extent or another, otherwise we wouldn't sign up in the first place... this does not mean that there are not other social or economic incentives which are important to a soldier, sailor or airman when they enlist, it simply means that the factors which influence that decision be it patriotism, economics, social factors are usually present for most soldiers... what varies from individual to individual is the mix of those factors which are present to which extent.
For myself for example it was less about money and more about ideology/patriotism. Having said that, it's also entirely possible to enlist for ideology and also be cynical at the same time - when I enlisted, I knew that the state could and would abuse me for it's own ends... however I also knew that the willingness for a state to pursue it's own ends should never be underestimated, and that history has shown that if societies can't fulfill their military requirements through volunteerism, they'll do so through involuntary service instead. At the time I figured I was much more comfortable deploying to some hellhole somewhere than letting one of my friends or siblings do so in my stead.
</hijack>
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Those are trainees/college students. This is the sort of competition I am talking about are from active duty serving soldiers: http://www.sniperinfo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1007
Judging by my father and sister and others I know, it seems like the dominant ethos is simply professionalism, it's a job and it needs doing. Dad's a lifer, been in since he was 15, and they're both in fairly specialised and skilled areas of the RAN though, so it may be different for your average 20-something army grunt...
That's true, but I'll advance that Sandhurts is the best military academy anywhere in the world because it is just that - West Point is a university; but Sandhurst's cadets are mostly graduates and so all they are concerned about is turning (considerably older, more experienced and more mature) cadets into officers rather than giving them an education. In other words, they have a natural advantage at this sort of thing.
This is partly what I love about the British Army and squaddies in general. We all take the mick out of officers and the rest, and occasionally give orders to the tune of 'right guys, we're attacking Cap Badge Hill - we're all going to die' but in reality if you didn't love your country and trust your officers to look after you you'd resign straight away. We like to think of ourselves as spartan warriors who are hard as nails, but we'll all stop on patrol through Khandahar to give one of our boiled sweets to the lad following our patrol.
Diggerstan bringing back NATSO to embark on a crusade for world domination? I'd like to see that one... but I think the idea that 'I'd rather it be me getting this than someone else' is a common one and it keeps a lot of us going a lot of the time.
Sounds like something I'd have loved to have done; I expect you lot do very well at that: back when I was in the business I worked with some of your snipers who had been in Vietnam and they were top-notch.
Pretty much. You can't think about it too much after too long otherwise you'd either quit or go mad. There's a great line in Zulu which sums it up; a private asks Michael Caine, playing a colour sergeant, why it has to be them fighting the horde of screaming Zulus and he says to him 'because we're here, lad. No-one else.'
You hand in your uniform (or most of it; the colour at stores let me keep what I wanted so I still have some) once you leave but I always thought that we had pretty rubbish uniforms - except the Guards, whose red coats and bearskins are quite stylish indeed.
Neonanocyborgasm
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
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To Flying Pig,
Do you own any cool uniforms?
Do you own any cool uniforms?
Hey!
Is there a rule-of-thumb regarding ammunition weight and weapon weight? Like, suppose one guy has an M-16 (8 lbs) and another guy has an M-14 (11,5 lbs), how would ammunition be carried? Would they each carry a similar number of magazines? Would they try to carry an equivalent number of rounds? Would the M-16 guy carry more rounds(/magazines) because his weapon is lighter?
Assume foot patrol, if that helps (obviously, the M-14 is more suitable for non-urban environments)
Is there a rule-of-thumb regarding ammunition weight and weapon weight? Like, suppose one guy has an M-16 (8 lbs) and another guy has an M-14 (11,5 lbs), how would ammunition be carried? Would they each carry a similar number of magazines? Would they try to carry an equivalent number of rounds? Would the M-16 guy carry more rounds(/magazines) because his weapon is lighter?
Assume foot patrol, if that helps (obviously, the M-14 is more suitable for non-urban environments)
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
The M16 guy carries more, but not because of his weapon being a few pounds lighter. There is also a weight difference in the ammo used between the M16 and M14 as well. M16 uses 5.56 ammo, while the M14 uses 7.62. The 7.62 is a larger round, and actually weighs just over double what a 5.56 round does. So the obvious benefit of the M16, aside from the rifle weighing a little less, is that your average soldier could carry double the amount of rounds for an M16 that he could for an M14.
I've shot both, and by far like the M14 for its shooting characteristics. But, if I were a grunt on a long foot patrol, already weighed down by armor vest plate, helmet, backpack, etc. etc. I would probably be opting for the M16 before long. On long marches/patrols, weight of gear becomes a significant issue.
Yeah, I know that the 7.62x51mm is a heavier round.
The FN FAL tends to use a 20 round magazine (which is what I am familiar with), and I assume (from TV
) that the M16 tends to be used with the 30 round magazine. I kinda assume that those two loaded magazines are approximately similar in weight, so I was wondering if the average soldier aimed for a target number of magazines or if a total weight of gun+ammo was involved in some type of calculation.
(I preferred firing the 5.56 vs the 7.62x51, but I was just a kid, and so weight/recoil etc. meant more back then, I'm sure)
The FN FAL tends to use a 20 round magazine (which is what I am familiar with), and I assume (from TV
) that the M16 tends to be used with the 30 round magazine. I kinda assume that those two loaded magazines are approximately similar in weight, so I was wondering if the average soldier aimed for a target number of magazines or if a total weight of gun+ammo was involved in some type of calculation.(I preferred firing the 5.56 vs the 7.62x51, but I was just a kid, and so weight/recoil etc. meant more back then, I'm sure)
I have a regimental beret, and I wear the best cap-badge in the history of the world... just like every other soldier. That said, I don't own a set but I always thought that the Household Cavalry officer' service dress was the dog's - this isn't quite it but it's pretty close
Standing by to be corrected by an American, but in the British system when we have the SA80 (rather like an M16 but in a bullpup design and slightly more weighted towards close-range fighting) accompanied by the sharpshooter rifle (almost identical to the old SLR or FN-FAL for foreigners, and quite similar to the M14 in principle). Now in that situation the sharpshooter isn't expecting to be putting down rapid fire (his job is to pick off enemies and kill them rather than just getting their heads down and maybe hitting one or two, like a usual rifleman does in the 'firefight' stage of battle) so he would carry fewer magazines. However, if you compare how much ammunition we carried before and after the introduction of the SA80 we nearly always had less with the old, larger round simply because it weighed a ton and we just didn't put it out in massive volume, preferring accuracy to suppression (we didn't even have automatic fire on our rifles back then). I was actually quite lucky in that by the time I was issued an SA80 during GRANBY I was back 'in the rear with the gear' so was given one magazine in case Saddam attacked our brigade HQ and told to keep it safe; but we officers always made a point of carrying our weapons, bayonets and grenades at all times to set an example to the men and keep spirits up - if they saw that their officers were unready to go to combat, that would have hurt morale.
That's rather complicated, actually, I'll go into it if you want but it's a real argument.
I actually liked the SLR more than the M16, and I've done long patrols with both. The reason was that while it's a big horrible thing to lug around and the rounds are fairly heavy, that was outweighed for me by the increased punch and the knowledge that if I hit an enemy behind cover he's probably going to go down. There's a lot of comfort in that over knowing that your weapon's not supposed to really cause damage until you start assaulting.
The FN FAL tends to use a 20 round magazine (which is what I am familiar with), and I assume (from TV
Generally we carried about 80 rounds bombed up in four magazines when we left the gates on the SLR, and then maybe more in our packs still in the cardboard boxes (which are lighter than metal magazines). Nowadays it's more like six of thirty, but that's as much to do with the fact that they shoot more than with the weight.
I agree, actually - it's great fun being able just to blat off rounds and they all go where you want them, that would never happen with an SLR
stuge
Emperor
Hey FP, what are your favorites in military music?
Can't seem to get the embeds to work but if El Mac is watching this thread and can fix it I'd be appreciative.
Ride of the Valkyries
First up would have to be the regimental quick-march, music to invade Poland to - Ride of the Valkyries. No war film would be complete without an aircraft-full of rather dashing young men leaping out to give six of the best to the Germans - huzzah indeed.
British Grenadiers
Close second to Her Majesty's Grenadier Guards for the good old, much-parodied, British Grenadiers. This version isn't exactly what you'd hear on most parade grounds but you can't help when listening to it imagine a battalion of red coats coming out of the smoke towards you... belting!
The Kinnegad Slashers
My county's and my brother's regiment, the Glorious Glosters, with their own quick march from Ireland. This one played out over Gloster Hill in Korea during the regiment's heroic last stand at the Battle of Imjin River in 1951. Very similar to 'St Patrick's Day', which is the Irish Guards' quick march.
Men of Harlech
Few get the blood going better than the Royal Welch's quick march, also the slow march of a fair few including the Welsh Guards. Cambria live for aye!
Fare ye well Inniskilling
No I have absolutely no idea what the correct way of spelling that is, but another one that's been used as a drinking song for squaddies through the ages. Like many of the others, has lyrics that every self-respecting dragoon could tell you, and in true fashion every one of them knows a different set - some respectful, some not, but all based around the same themes of regimental pride and longing to get back home. The version I've linked is sung, but it's a damn good one and it's got pictures of the dragoons set to it.
Colonel Bogey
Also known as 'Hitler has only got one ball', this one came, courtesy of 'Dad's Army', to define the British Army spirit. There are few scenes more iconic than the British soldiers marching into the prison camp in A Bridge on the River Kwai, whistling this march.
Tipperary
Wherever the army goes, this one goes - loudly, in the bars. There's one story I remember of a broken company being chased by Germans during the war and re-organising in a small French town, where their commander, anxious to rebuild morale, bought tin whistles and drums from a toy-shop and got a makeshift band to start marching the men around the town blowing Tipperary. They rallied, and ended up being evacuated safe from Dunkirk.
In the Army Now
I think we can claim this one after the band's re-releasing of it last year for army charities - with anti-war lyrics conveniently and often jarringly removed. The video was filmed with the Rifles and the 'sergeant' shouting in it is a serving CSM. I use it on camps with my cadets as an alarm to get them up at bloody-early-o-clock - fantastic song.
SS-18 ICBM
Oscillator
Where do shotguns usually find use in today's military forces?
Either as you would expect - a pump-action firearm whcih can fire either buckshot or solid slugs - which is given to the leading man of a section so that he can more easily engage the enemy from up close (the solid round is for vehicles), although I can see it being used in pretty intense riot control as well. You also get them attached to the underside of soldiers' rifles and they are used when assaulting an enemy trench or other position to complement normal bullets up close. In addition, something similar exists on ships to fire 'chaff' - throwing out a cloud of rubbish to confuse smart missiles and cause them to veer off course.
SS-18 ICBM
Oscillator
That is definitely news to me. I didn't know they had that much penetration.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Its a great weapon for door breaching and in urban ops. Has a lot of power, but shot wont go through several walls and accidently kill innocent civilians.
I could see where FP refers using a slug to stop a vehicle. That probably has enough power to go through the radiator right into the engine block.
I thought the idea was to hit hte driver through his windscreen if I'm honest - thinking land rovers and motorbikes rather than MBTs.
That's quite an embarrasing omission on my part considering I'm supposedly a 'breaking and entering' specialist - they're often fired at door hinges, which enables you to go through without having to barge in with a ram and all the grace of a bull elephant, straight into a room full of enemy.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Slugs not very accurate for that kind of work, I would think. Barrel is not rifled and the slug itself isnt exactly milled for accuracy either.
And I can gurantee hitting someone with a slug on a moving motorcycle would have to have a lot of luck involved. Used to use them for deer hunting as a kid, and you had to get much closer than you did with a rifle - thus it was a much harder way to kill a deer.
Not to mention having the power to blow an entire lock mechanism right out of the frame.
SS-18 ICBM
Oscillator
Wasn't thinking of MBTs. More of what Mobboss said. Incidentally, how are rocket launchers handed out? Or is it just more prudent to call in armor or air support for enemy entrenchments and armor?
stuge
Emperor
Heh, I figured I'd get a good haul out of you.
I really liked the Grenadiers'. Its so simple with only the flutes and drums, and yet so evocative. You can tell straight away that it has a lot of history behind it.
Let's go international, here's a few from Finland.
March of the Guard Battalion, nowadays the regimental march of the Guard Jäger regiment in Helsinki. My favorite of the regimental marches, even though it wasn't my unit.
March of the Finnish Cavalry. From the Thirty Years' War. Probably the best known of Finnish marches, in that someone in continental Europe might have heard it.
Hakakomppanian marssi. (Don't know how I should translate it.) The best of the stuff that was made during Winter and Continuation war.
Jäger March. Obligatory for an infantryman.
March of the Vyborg Battalion. March of the Karelia Brigade these days. I don't care for it all that much, but it's what I mostly marched to.
