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@Kyriakos

Ah, but there would be an observor to God, that would be God who would be engaged in self-contained observation of Himself. Either way your deviating from my point, which is that the religious believer would say that God is not dependant on his creation, or the fact that the idea of God is manifest in the human intellect for his being. Rather they would say that God is eternal and independent of creation itself, He is beyond it, and the He is fundamentally self-contained and self-existent.
Plotinus
Even funnier example:
Does your finger knows when you move it???
Can it prove it belongs to a body???
Does it know it was conceived and when???
As the Chassidic thought teaches:
"G-d is not Nature. But Nature is G-dly."
Meaning - you can't demote G-d to "just nature".
And yet even the most "physical" is equally G-dly, as are the angels.
G-d isn't just "One" (and He "rules" over some separate "world").
"There's NOTHING, but G-d" - is the true REALITY.
The world itself is but part of G-dliness, albeit it doesn't feel so itself.
Again, does you finger feel being a part of you???
 
Kyriakos
Again, you still speak of G-d as "philosophy", whereas I speak of Him as Reality.
That's THE difference between Jews and others.
You can "philosophize" about G-d endlessly - you still won't have a slightest feeling towards Him nor will you have gain any objective knowledge what Truth really is.
Jews call G-d "King" and "Father" - types of persons CLOSELY involved with others.
For "philosophers", G-d is just a "deity", a COLD, STRANGE, SEPARATE, FOREIGN Being, regardless how much revered.
But G-d created Man to be His CHILDREN, not "internet users".
 
Plotinus
Even funnier example:
Does your finger knows when you move it???
Can it prove it belongs to a body???
Does it know it was conceived and when???
As the Chassidic thought teaches:
"G-d is not Nature. But Nature is G-dly."
Meaning - you can't demote G-d to "just nature".
And yet even the most "physical" is equally G-dly, as are the angels.
G-d isn't just "One" (and He "rules" over some separate "world").
"There's NOTHING, but G-d" - is the true REALITY.
The world itself is but part of G-dliness, albeit it doesn't feel so itself.
Again, does you finger feel being a part of you???

Making a parallelism between a god and a human, and then a human body and a human finger, does not seem to me to be that well-crafted since a finger does not possess a brain.
That said, you may know that very small children seem to sometimes treat their fingers, or hands, as separate beings, and play with them as if they were puppets, the one talking to the other.
In that sense the child has given autonomous life for a small time to one of his hands. But it is still the psyche of the child that controls that hand, BUT at the same time that psyche is in the hand,since the child views it as autonomous in that game.
With this i mean to say that either way it is a human psyche which generates the sense of life, nomatter where it is to be found (in the entire body, the brain, or just a limb). Likewise in the case of the idea of a god INEVITABLY it is the human psyche which conceives it. Now this does not mean a god cannot exist; i have never seen a puma, but i know they exist, and have an idea of them too (moreover i could argue that i had an idea of them even before knowing they exist, since that knowledge had to be grounded on something already existent in my psyche).
 
If you view yourself as god's "children", would that not make your idea of god in some degree (voluntarily or not voluntarily) mix with your idea of your real parents?
And i ask this because it seems to me that no one has a clear-cut distinction of what inside of him or her is a sense of their parents. This can lead to various creations of strong mental phenomena that may be attributed to a deity, but etymologically had a very material basis in actual objects in the external world- in this case the thinker's real parents.
 
Kyriakos
Normally, one's parents:
1. Gave birth to him/her.
2. Provided everything without asking anything in exchange.
3. Are meant to be loved/revered by their children regardless of personality.
4. Are the closest people one ever has.
Now, how should we look at G-d:
1. Created and constantly recreates not only us, but the entire universe, for US to use it.
2. Provides us with all our basic, not-so-basic and even luxury needs, we just need to ask properly. (You wouldn't steal from your parents, huh???)
3. Also asks us to show and develop love and reverence (as in gratitude and awe) towards Him - for our sake, to be good-mannered children, not cause He would "beat" us.
4. We are part of Him in the most direct meaning of the word. The finger in a body is more distant from the brain than we are from G-d.
 
It is true, one could hold that the others argument is rational but that the conclusion is erroneous. This very fact however implies the subjectivity of the idea of rationality as what is rational is determined by the observor, ergo its a product of humna perception.

No, it doesn't. The fact that an observer perceives that something has a quality in no way implies that it has that quality only in the observer's perception. If I measure a tree and find that it's a certain height, then I do not impose the height upon it - it would have been that height whether I'd measured it or not.

Similarly, it's perfectly possible that when I consider someone's belief to be rational, I am recognising an objective fact about it, not merely imposing upon it a subjective value of my own.

I'm not saying that that is the case. I'm just saying that the fact that people disagree about which beliefs are rational doesn't mean that they disagree about what the standards of rationality are. And even if they do disagree about what the standards of rationality are, that doesn't mean there's no objective truth to the matter.

In his mind he has a particular reason why he would engage in such and such act and thus it can be said that he has his own rationality, even if said action is fundamentally devoid of reason and by the standards of anyone but himself is irrational.

He may certainly have his own reasons. And he may think that they are rational. But that doesn't mean he's right or that he's justified in thinking that his reasons are rational. If we ask him why he believes something and he says it's because he read every third word on the ninth page of yesterday's copy of the Times and scrambled the letters at random until they made a message, then even if he thinks that's a rational way to form a belief, I'd say we're pretty well justified in saying that it's not rational. And that is because we can be confident that such a procedure does not tend to produce true beliefs. The fact that he thinks he's being rational is neither here nor there, because he's not being rational.

Basically it is in my view false to think, like the Rabbi who wrote that article, that Greeks are one thing and Jews are another and they do not mix.

Absolutely. In antiquity there were Jews who greatly admired Greek culture, and also Greeks who greatly admired Judaism. (Although Paul preached to gentiles, he seems to have mainly preached to gentiles who hung around synagogues.)

Indeed, Greek thought influenced Judaism in some respects. The deuterocanonical book of Wisdom shows extensive influence from Stoicism and perhaps Middle Platonism. Alexandrian Judaism was very Greek in style and thought, as exemplified by Philo of Alexandria. I don't see how anyone could read Philo and then talk about "Jews" and "Greeks" as if they were two wholly alien cultures.

Plotinus
Even funnier example:
Does your finger knows when you move it???
Can it prove it belongs to a body???
Does it know it was conceived and when???

As Kyriakos said, the reason my finger doesn't know things isn't because it's a part of me, but because it isn't a person. If my finger had a mind of its own then of course it could work out pretty quickly that it's just a part of me. Similarly, if we are parts of God, then I see no reason in principle why there couldn't be evidence for this.

Besides, my earlier point stands. If you think that God has influenced the world in any way then you must accept that there could in principle be evidence for his having done so - otherwise his influence would have to have been pretty feeble. If you think that God's actions have no discernible effect on the world then it's hard to see why you'd believe that he's ever done anything at all.
 
No, it doesn't. The fact that an observer perceives that something has a quality in no way implies that it has that quality only in the observer's perception. If I measure a tree and find that it's a certain height, then I do not impose the height upon it - it would have been that height whether I'd measured it or not.

Similarly, it's perfectly possible that when I consider someone's belief to be rational, I am recognising an objective fact about it, not merely imposing upon it a subjective value of my own.

I'm not saying that that is the case. I'm just saying that the fact that people disagree about which beliefs are rational doesn't mean that they disagree about what the standards of rationality are. And even if they do disagree about what the standards of rationality are, that doesn't mean there's no objective truth to the matter.

But is not rationality an idea, its a perception of the individual that this, that or another act has certain qualities that make it 'rational' as distinct from the absence of this quality in that which is irrational. Rationality is not like a tree which has an independent, tangible presence distinct from the observor. Its almost (not quite) like human rights, they don't exist by themselves unless people act as if they exist. rationality doesn't exist unless people uphold that certain acts have charateristics that can be said to be rational, and since those characteristics are determined by human perceptions of what is good and what is bad, the whole idea must be subjective even if it is based on objective criterion.

Thus considering this, would not the scambled letter method be a "rationality" of its own, considering that rationality as a fundamentally ideational product does not have a distinct presence beyond human perceptions of the benefits, or lack thereof of certain acts, and the same in regards to the reasonability of certain supporting methods in regards to initiating said actions. (your example of the scrambled letters would be equivalent to the oracle of delphi, to us today listening to the ramblings of a woman hazed by ethane would be the hight of irrationality, but in ancient times it was considered perfectly rational. ergo subjectivity applies)
 
Plotinus
Oh, sorry, I missed that point.
I meant not "historical" proofs (we'll come back later to that, Sinai is the main one, evidence of 3.000.000 people) - but "physical/natural" ones.
From THAT point, you can't see G-d.
The same way you can't feel moving at a constant speed in vacuum - irrelevant issue.
Also, WE can't feel many physical things too, like radiation waves, but we know they exist.
How??? We used devices, separate from US, to see it.
Well, we have a device for G-d too - it's called the SOUL.
 
(your example of the scrambled letters would be equivalent to the oracle of delphi, to us today listening to the ramblings of a woman hazed by ethane would be the hight of irrationality, but in ancient times it was considered perfectly rational. ergo subjectivity applies)

Funnily enough though the oracle of Delphi seems to have presented not only lucid, but exceedingly cunning in their multiple interpretations sayings, such as the one which in greek can at the same time mean: "you go, but you don't return, you die in war" and "you go, you return, you don't die in war" :) Also the famous one given to king Midas (iirc) that if he crossed the river a grear kingdom would perish. Midas thought that the Persian kingdom would perish, but it could also be said to have meant his own, which did perish.
 
Should go on to show that "if i am certain of something i cannot be wrong due to god's benevolence"* is not true, although i did say i was uncertain :D

*General meaning of Descartes' circular agument and supposed proof of god's existence.
 
Croesus of Lydia was the famously rich king. :)
 
Kyriakos
Normally, one's parents:
1. Gave birth to him/her.
2. Provided everything without asking anything in exchange.
3. Are meant to be loved/revered by their children regardless of personality.
4. Are the closest people one ever has.
Now, how should we look at G-d:
1. Created and constantly recreates not only us, but the entire universe, for US to use it.
2. Provides us with all our basic, not-so-basic and even luxury needs, we just need to ask properly. (You wouldn't steal from your parents, huh???)
3. Also asks us to show and develop love and reverence (as in gratitude and awe) towards Him - for our sake, to be good-mannered children, not cause He would "beat" us.
4. We are part of Him in the most direct meaning of the word. The finger in a body is more distant from the brain than we are from G-d.

Yes, there can be similarities, but i think it is dangerous to use terms like "parent" to signify something metaphorically, moreso if that something's existence is debated, since IMO inevitably one would tend to fill in gaps with the more material object that said notion corresponds to, ie one's real parents in this case.
In Psychology the issue of getting over the first impressions of one's parents is massive, and from what i have read many people (perhaps a majority) never actually grow over that phase in a substantial way. One may carry oedipal ideas with him without realizing it.
Also a psychiatrist once mentioned to me that an argued interpretation of the Exit from Paradise of Adam and Eve is that it refers to a bad father who caught his children experimenting with their newly found (adolescent) sexuality, something to which the nudity might refer to. I am not claiming this is the definitive answer, just another iota of the puzzle and how it is being slowly deciphered.

Words are very powerful, since they appear to link mental connections. So using a word known to have massive charge (such as 'parent') to mean something else (god) can have its disadvantages in my view.
That said i cannot really say how you experience your notion of a god, nor am i trying to do that. Just trying to communicate :)
 
Psychology is the best way to turn sane people into psychiatrists. :lol:
Anyways, thank G-d, I'm not stuck in this psycho-mud, sorry for the word.
When you can speak about the loftiness of the soul - why speak about the lowliness of the mind..? :crazyeye:
And, btw, we should learn how to relate to G-d (in some degree, there are other metaphors vastly used too) from this comparison, since it's the way He wants us to feel - though much more than just that, of course.
"The one bound to above won't fall down below."
 
Was Pelagius actually a Pelagian?

That depends on what you mean by "Pelagian". Pelagius is typically caricatured and his true views were more subtle and complex - not to mention harsh and unsympathetic - than he is often portrayed. However, if by "Pelagian" you mean someone who believes that salvation depends upon one's own efforts, then, yes, he was. Although so, perhaps, are an awful lot of other people.

And do you know if Fr. John Romanides is typically worth reading?

I'm afraid I don't know at all.
 
That depends on what you mean by "Pelagian". Pelagius is typically caricatured and his true views were more subtle and complex - not to mention harsh and unsympathetic - than he is often portrayed. However, if by "Pelagian" you mean someone who believes that salvation depends upon one's own efforts, then, yes, he was. Although so, perhaps, are an awful lot of other people.
So what are the major contrasts between his actual views and the picture painted of him by enemy theologians?


I'm afraid I don't know at all.
Well, I have his Patristic Theology ordered. There's an exceprt here , and some oversimplified polemics aside, I like it so far.
 
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