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Ask a Theologian IV

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Omniscience: if God's knowledge is merely theoretical (for example, he knows everything there is to know about colour, but has never seen it) I'm inclined to see God's knowledge as rather deficient.

Omnipotence: if God cannot do the impossible - and isn't the miraculous by definition impossible? - then he's rather deficient in that regard too.

Still, is this how God is seen by the majority of theologians? And, croyant or not, don't all theologians have to have some conception of God?

Or perhaps not. Is it sufficient to stay in the realm of "so and so said this and that"? But then this brings us nicely back to the distinction between theory and experience. And, of course, a psychiatrist has no need to experience psychosis in order to be helpful to a psychotic person. To what extent can the religious experience be seen as mental illness?

Spoiler :
To say that God cannot make 2+2=5 (apart from the nice trick of 2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8 taken to 1 significant figure gives 2+2=5), is to assume that mathematics is an abstraction that predates and exists outside of God's field of expertise and interference.

I must say this kind of God is beginning to look more and more enfeebled. Or perhaps the words omniscience and omnipotence need some serious reworking?
 
So, speaking of omniscience. You said that God 'by definition' is omniscient. Do you think Paul and Jesus would've thought of God as omniscient the same way we think of omniscience? Or at least, similarly enough?

That's a good question. I don't know the answer. I should think it's more likely that Paul did than Jesus did. I'm talking about "God" as traditionally understood by classical theism, but obviously there are other ways of thinking of God; the question is how far one can stretch these ways, because eventually you reach a stage where it's questionable whether what you're talking about would really count as God.

Omniscience: if God's knowledge is merely theoretical (for example, he knows everything there is to know about colour, but has never seen it) I'm inclined to see God's knowledge as rather deficient.

But if God knows everything there is to know about colour, I don't see how you can say that his knowledge in this regard is deficient. Perhaps his experience is deficient, but isn't that a different thing?

Omnipotence: if God cannot do the impossible - and isn't the miraculous by definition impossible? - then he's rather deficient in that regard too.

Still, is this how God is seen by the majority of theologians? And, croyant or not, don't all theologians have to have some conception of God?

There are things that are impossible given other things, and things that are impossible in themselves. For example, I cannot jump out of the window and fly away by flapping my arms, because that's not compatible with the laws of physics. So that's impossible given the laws of physics and various other things (my weight, the size of the Earth, etc.). An example of something that's impossible in itself is to construct a square circle.

On the traditional understanding, God can do impossible things of the first kind but not the second. In itself, there's nothing impossible about me jumping out of the window and flying off - it's just that I can't do it given the circumstances. God can make it happen because in itself it's possible. But he can't construct a square circle, because that's inherently impossible - it's a contradiction in terms.

If God could do things like that, then everything would fall apart. We'd have no reason for thinking anything because literally anything would be possible. Moreover, God would be irrational. Breaking the laws of physics is one thing (after all, God presumably created them), but breaking the laws of logic is quite another.

Descartes apparently thought that God can do the logically impossible, but few other people agreed with him.

Or perhaps not. Is it sufficient to stay in the realm of "so and so said this and that"? But then this brings us nicely back to the distinction between theory and experience. And, of course, a psychiatrist has no need to experience psychosis in order to be helpful to a psychotic person. To what extent can the religious experience be seen as mental illness?

I can't go beyond the realm of who said what, and what I think of their arguments. Perhaps others can. I believe that there has been research into the similarities between religious experience and mental illness, but I don't know what was concluded!

To say that God cannot make 2+2=5 (apart from the nice trick of 2.4 + 2.4 = 4.8 taken to 1 significant figure gives 2+2=5), is to assume that mathematics is an abstraction that predates and exists outside of God's field of expertise and interference.

I must say this kind of God is beginning to look more and more enfeebled. Or perhaps the words omniscience and omnipotence need some serious reworking?

Mathematics isn't a thing, though. It's not some kind of object, floating around out there, that God either did or did not create. It's just how things are, and they couldn't be any other way. There's no possible world in which 2+2 fails to be 4; there's no possible world in which I can have two pebbles and another two pebbles and somehow not have four pebbles. "4" is just another word for "2+2", and vice versa. To say that even God can't change that isn't to set up a sort of mathematical rival to God. As I say, if God could do that, he could do things like make it the case that something is true and not true at the same time. He could make it the case that God both exists and doesn't exist, or that I both exist and don't exist. He could inflict massive suffering on us all and make it right for us to thank him for it. He could make promises to us (such as the promise to send a Messiah, or to give eternal life to the righteous), and break those promises, and yet not break them as well. So if God could do the logically impossible there'd be no reason to trust him or anything.

Certainly there are other definitions of omnipotence. Augustine's was: omnipotence means being able to do anything that you wish to do. On this definition, there are arguably lots of things that God can't do, but this isn't a problem because he would never wish to do so. A problem is that, again, my pencil is omnipotent on this definition. However, some modern theologians have tried to take up this general idea. Schleiermacher said that God's power has to be understood only in the context of his will. God's will is always loving, and always directed to the salvation of his creatures. To say he is omnipotent is to say that nothing can ever stand in the way of that purpose. Indeed I think it was Barth who said that to speculate about omnipotence solely in terms of raw power - in terms of what an omnipotent being can and can't do - is more like the Christian conception of the devil than of God. God is not, primarily, this vastly powerful entity about whom we may wonder what, precisely, is within his power; he is primarily a loving Father on whom we can rely.

I don't know whether that helps or is just ducking the question. But you can see there are many ways to approach this kind of issue.
 
I don't know whether that helps or is just ducking the question. But you can see there are many ways to approach this kind of issue.

Indeed it's all very interesting. Though to be honest I'm really in the wrong thread here. Talking earnestly and seriously about God (never mind the devil) isn't my thing. I'm not sure it's a particularly useful thing to do.

Still, thanks for your insight.
 
God can make it happen because in itself it's possible. But he can't construct a square circle, because that's inherently impossible - it's a contradiction in terms.

If God could do things like that, then everything would fall apart. We'd have no reason for thinking anything because literally anything would be possible. Moreover, God would be irrational. Breaking the laws of physics is one thing (after all, God presumably created them), but breaking the laws of logic is quite another.
I've argued in the past that god cannot make these things happen because such contradictions are basically linguistic nonsense. Though we can talk about a square with a circular shape, that's only because it's a quirk of how language works. If you accept that god can make a square circle, there's no reason to assume god could not make a red 3, or he could not make colorless green ideas sleep furiously. There's no way to express what that even would look like, and so failing to produce it doesn't represent a limitation on god's power, but simply a failure to express a real idea.

Do you think this a reasonable expression of this idea, or do you think a square circle is a real concept?
 
I've argued in the past that god cannot make these things happen because such contradictions are basically linguistic nonsense. Though we can talk about a square with a circular shape, that's only because it's a quirk of how language works. If you accept that god can make a square circle, there's no reason to assume god could not make a red 3, or he could not make colorless green ideas sleep furiously. There's no way to express what that even would look like, and so failing to produce it doesn't represent a limitation on god's power, but simply a failure to express a real idea.

Do you think this a reasonable expression of this idea, or do you think a square circle is a real concept?

A square circle like you described could be a potential concept if we did not already have the concept of a circle or square. Even if it came to figuring out the a priori reason we would name things to begin with, it would not solve anything. Humans could scratch the whole name calling process and create a new one, but would that even make sense?

Could it be reasoned that things make sense to us, because we have named them, and given them definitions? I would call them real concepts if two or more humans agreed that they were real, otherwise every human would have their own reality and there would be no communication.
 
Look, a pan-dimensional, transcendent, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite being, who may or may not exist (for certain as yet undefined, and probably undefinable values of "existence") is surely beyond any considerations of what is, or is not, linguistically nonsense to finite beings such as ourselves. Assuming we exist, that is. (Well, you and I can agree that you exist. But what about me?)

It seems to me that these things are impossible to talk about without talking nonsense.

(A language in which I consider myself to be fluent, btw. But unfortunately it seems to be a language with an infinite number of regional dialects.)
 
Look, a pan-dimensional, transcendent, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite being, who may or may not exist (for certain as yet undefined, and probably undefinable values of "existence") is surely beyond any considerations of what is, or is not, linguistically nonsense to finite beings such as ourselves.
Well yeah. A guy who's from China is beyond our linguistic nonsense.

But if our statement is mere nonsense, then it can't be fulfilled by any measure of power because there's no fulfillment condition. My point is that the rules of linguistics is the only thing that makes us think that "circles with a square shape" possesses any meaning. While intuitive by the rules of grammar, it is essentially a string of random words.
 
I've argued in the past that god cannot make these things happen because such contradictions are basically linguistic nonsense. Though we can talk about a square with a circular shape, that's only because it's a quirk of how language works. If you accept that god can make a square circle, there's no reason to assume god could not make a red 3, or he could not make colorless green ideas sleep furiously. There's no way to express what that even would look like, and so failing to produce it doesn't represent a limitation on god's power, but simply a failure to express a real idea.

Do you think this a reasonable expression of this idea, or do you think a square circle is a real concept?

I've heard this exact same quotation used in this exact same argument. :lol:

Anyway, I have to agree here. It's like saying God can't ahbdbubfhftherrtrth therefore he can't be omnipotent.

Btw, are you also a (formally educated) philosopher?
 
I've heard this exact same quotation used in this exact same argument. :lol:

Anyway, I have to agree here. It's like saying God can't ahbdbubfhftherrtrth therefore he can't be omnipotent.

Btw, are you also a (formally educated) philosopher?

No, he's a history student. Specializes in Tudor and Irish history.

Are you a grad student right now PCH? I don't remember.
 
It was coined in one of Chomsky's linguistic works as an example of a sentence that is grammatically correct but semantically nonsensical. So it does suit that argument nicely.
 
Aren't you a fierce anti-Chomskite, Mouthwash? Or maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.

I view Chomsky as a political hack and a pseudohistorian trying to grab attention for his tear-jerking polemics. I have never studied his linguistic views.

To keep this post relevant, let's ask Plotinus what he thinks of Chomsky's claim that Christianity was a force for the weak and poor, until Constantine made it into the church of "the rich, the persecutors, the privileged, the powerful," which it remained until the present day to keep the lower class placated.
 
Why do we have to worship God, or for that why does he expect us to worship Him?
 
A related question: what, exactly, does it mean to "worship"? It seems everyone has their own idea of what the word means, but what is the common thread, and when a person worships someone, what are they (or what do they think they are) doing?
 
I've argued in the past that god cannot make these things happen because such contradictions are basically linguistic nonsense. Though we can talk about a square with a circular shape, that's only because it's a quirk of how language works. If you accept that god can make a square circle, there's no reason to assume god could not make a red 3, or he could not make colorless green ideas sleep furiously. There's no way to express what that even would look like, and so failing to produce it doesn't represent a limitation on god's power, but simply a failure to express a real idea.

Do you think this a reasonable expression of this idea, or do you think a square circle is a real concept?

Look, a pan-dimensional, transcendent, omnipotent, omniscient, infinite being, who may or may not exist (for certain as yet undefined, and probably undefinable values of "existence") is surely beyond any considerations of what is, or is not, linguistically nonsense to finite beings such as ourselves. Assuming we exist, that is. (Well, you and I can agree that you exist. But what about me?)

It seems to me that these things are impossible to talk about without talking nonsense.

(A language in which I consider myself to be fluent, btw. But unfortunately it seems to be a language with an infinite number of regional dialects.)

I think ParkCungHee's way of seeing it makes sense. Borachio, I'm sure that God could do things that we can't conceive. But it doesn't follow from that that any set of words we can string together describes something that God can do, because there are many sets of words that don't describe anything at all, because they're nonsense of the worst kind.

To put it another way, perhaps there are some things that seem nonsense to us that God could do - because, as you rightly say, God is not bound by what we can imagine. Perhaps a square circle actually is possible, though we cannot conceive how, in which case God is not constrained by our claim that it's impossible. To that extent, I agree with you. However, this does not mean we should expect God to be able to do anything that language appears to describe. There's an infinite number of statements, apparently describing possible actions, that are nonsensical, incoherent, or plain self-contradictory. I'm sure that an omnipotent being could actually perform some of these actions, simply because in fact they're not incoherent or inconsistent (it only seems that way to us). But it doesn't follow from this that he could do them all. There are many mathematical formulae that look like nonsense to me, because I'm not very good at maths, but which a mathematician can solve. It doesn't follow that any random string of mathematical symbols expresses a soluble formula.

I view Chomsky as a political hack and a pseudohistorian trying to grab attention for his tear-jerking polemics. I have never studied his linguistic views.

To keep this post relevant, let's ask Plotinus what he thinks of Chomsky's claim that Christianity was a force for the weak and poor, until Constantine made it into the church of "the rich, the persecutors, the privileged, the powerful," which it remained until the present day to keep the lower class placated.

My understanding of Chomsky is that he's primarily a linguist, so it's possible a little unfair to dismiss him for his extra-curricular activities when they're (theoretically) not his main thing. But that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge - that and my conviction that "Chomsky" would be a wonderful adjective.

On the claim, I think there is some truth to it. The pre-Constantinian church was, I think, primarily on the side of the weak and the poor, if only because few Christians were in positions of power. That's not to say they were all poor - they certainly weren't - but few were notably wealthy and very few were in public/political life. At the same time, I'm not sure how much the pre-Constantinian church actually did for the poor. They mainly looked after themselves - e.g. widows and orphans within the church were cared for by other church members.

In the fourth century, all of this changed, as we all know. Now there were many more wealthy Christians and Christians in positions of power, from the emperor down. However, this period saw the church do far more for the weak and marginalised. This is when the church started building hospitals and hostels for the sick and poor, as well as for foreigners; it's also when you start finding bishops who were basically political activists, such as Basil of Caesarea, who built the enormous "Basiliad" complex outside Caesarea to care for the poor and sick, and who preached scorching sermons ordering the wealthy to open their storehouses and distribute grain to the starving during times of famine. I don't think you find that kind of thing before the fourth century, when Christians had less ability to do it and other things to worry about. It's also in the fourth century that the church started taking over some legal duties from the state (this was Constantine's idea), so bishops would hear some civil cases, and the church provided free legal support for those who couldn't afford it. In fact many people converted to Christianity specifically to get it.

When Julian the Apostate became emperor, he recognised that Christianity had become so successful partly because of these kinds of things, and he planned to create pagan copies of them.

Now of course the church did soon start working for "the rich, the persecutors, the privileged, the powerful". It was also in the fourth century that the state started persecuting some Christians on behalf of other Christians, in the case of the Donatists and others. But it wasn't until quite a lot later that Christians in power started really persecuting non-Christians. (Even the destruction of pagan temples, which began in the late fourth century, was not nearly as comprehensive as you'd think - some were not only left alone but actively preserved because of their cultural and historical value.)

So I'm not sure, really, when one could plausibly say the church went over to the side of the oppressors. I don't think it was in the fourth century. And even when it did, the story was always more complex. People forget that "the church" doesn't just mean the Pope or the bishops or even the priests, or whatever. It also includes the laity. In a society where everyone (or as close as makes no difference) is a Christian, then the church includes those who are oppressed as well as those who oppress. I think that Chaucer's General Prologue is a good reminder of this. He describes a motley bunch of pilgrims that includes a lot of ecclesiastical figures, who vary tremendously in their moral status - from outright satanic characters like the Summoner to worldly hypocrites like the Prioress, the Monk, and the Friar, to almost impossibly virtuous ones like the Parson. The Poor Parson and the Ploughman are just as much representatives of the church as the Pardoner.

So I suppose the real answer is this: after Constantine (perhaps a long time after Constantine), the church stopped being a small segment of society and became everybody. And when the church is everybody, it has the same diversity in morality, power, cruelty, and kindness, as human society in general.

Why do we have to worship God, or for that why does he expect us to worship Him?

A related question: what, exactly, does it mean to "worship"? It seems everyone has their own idea of what the word means, but what is the common thread, and when a person worships someone, what are they (or what do they think they are) doing?

These are interesting questions and they have not been much discussed. The only work I know of off-hand that's been done on them is this paper (co-written by a former colleague of mine). Its conclusion is that there isn't really a good reason to think that worship could be morally obligatory - and that this itself may be an argument against God's existence, given that it's generally thought that if God does exist we have a moral obligation to worship him. Whatever that means.

(I'm not sure if you will have access to the paper - I hope so!)
 
My understanding of Chomsky is that he's primarily a linguist, so it's possible a little unfair to dismiss him for his extra-curricular activities when they're (theoretically) not his main thing. But that's pretty much the extent of my knowledge - that and my conviction that "Chomsky" would be a wonderful adjective.

Yeah, that's what I meant. He might be very skilled in linguistics, for all I know, like Popper was skilled in epistemology rather than politics.

So I suppose the real answer is this: after Constantine (perhaps a long time after Constantine), the church stopped being a small segment of society and became everybody. And when the church is everybody, it has the same diversity in morality, power, cruelty, and kindness, as human society in general.

Chomsky also claimed that Pope John XXII attempted to revive the church of the gospels, and that is also what liberation theology was about: reviving its original, radical message for the sake of the poor and oppressed. According to him, the US reacted to this effort to restore Christianity by installing brutal right wing dictatorships throughout South America.

Would you say that Christianity today is used to keep lower classes and oppressed populations in line?
 
Chomsky also claimed that Pope John XXII attempted to revive the church of the gospels, and that is also what liberation theology was about: reviving its original, radical message for the sake of the poor and oppressed. According to him, the US reacted to this effort to restore Christianity by installing brutal right wing dictatorships throughout South America.

Would you say that Christianity today is used to keep lower classes and oppressed populations in line?

That's a bit like asking whether money is used to oppress people. Yes, it is - and it's also used to help people. Any big religion such as Christianity is going to be used for a vast range of things and reflect a vast range of interests, both good and bad, both 1% and 99%.

I think, though, that when Christianity is used to keep people in line these days it's more likely to be at the local or family level rather than at the national or class level. Maybe once Christian ideas were used to support the idea that one class should lord it over another, or one country over another, but I can't think of any real examples of that today. (With the possible exception of Pakistan, where Christianity is indeed used as an excuse to oppress one group of people - the Christians themselves, who are regarded as the lowest of the low by the Muslim majority - but that's not quite what you were thinking of.)

I doubt that the US support of right-wing dictatorships throughout South America was really a reaction to liberation theology, though. That sounds to me rather over-the-top. If anything it was a reaction to the spread (or feared spread) of left-wing politics and communism, of which liberation theology was one (relatively small) manifestation.
 
When it comes to worship, could it not just be viewed as recognizing the authority of an unknown entity? The way most of the stories were written, seems to show that worship was automatic without asking why. It was more involuntary than actually placing this entity in authority by some human means.
 
These are interesting questions and they have not been much discussed. The only work I know of off-hand that's been done on them is this paper (co-written by a former colleague of mine). Its conclusion is that there isn't really a good reason to think that worship could be morally obligatory - and that this itself may be an argument against God's existence, given that it's generally thought that if God does exist we have a moral obligation to worship him. Whatever that means.

(I'm not sure if you will have access to the paper - I hope so!)

Alas, I would need to pay for access. But I read the abstract, and didn't find it convincing (although I tend to think there is no "argument that God doesn't exist" that holds any water, compared to "argument that there is no argument FOR the existence of God", which makes enough sense to me).
 
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