[RD] Ask a trans person II: 2 trans 2 sexual

Doesn't this argument mirror part of the abortion debate?

It does inasmuch as both concern bodily autonomy.

On a different note, I wanted to ask you if the womens' sports issue was an area where trans rights should be pressed, or conceded.

Pressed. The crux of the “issue” is whether we are to be treated as women, or whether it’s alright to treat us as quasi-women (read: men) in certain circumstances. To concede that there are some circumstances where cis people should be allowed to treat us as quasi-women reframes the question around when society is required to treat us fully as women, entitled to the same rights as every other woman, and when society is allowed to treat us as lesser. Speaking for myself, it is deeply insulting that cis people feel perfectly entitled to have these sorts of "debates," and that so many of even the "well-meaning" ones treat it as some periphery issue; an indignity that they can conceded our behalf so they can appear reasonable and well-balanced to their transphobic friends.

I have my own ideas, but I am conflicted and frankly, I'd like input/guidance from actual stakeholders. I have a daughter, however, she is not "losing her spot/position/scholarship/etc." as a result of trans rights so my instinct is that even if I was opposed to trans women in womens' sports, which I am not, I'm not even theoretically in position to complain, based on any personal stake in the matter. Furthermore, I regard opposition to trans womens' participation in sports by people who, like me, have no personal stake, as essentially unwarranted malice.

Do you share my skepticism of separate categories for trans women in sports? Or is that something that has traction in the trans women community?
It seems to me that this is the core/primary reason. In fact you will often hear people openly stating as much. You will also hear, on the other hand, many more folks citing "fairness" and "integrity of the sport" as their reason.

So putting aside the many people who are just using the "fairness" and similar arguments as a mask for their malice towards trans women, is there any belief in the trans community that there is a significant portion of people who have genuine concerns about "fairness"?

For my part, I'm finding it difficult to separate the "fairness/integrity" arguments from a basic rejection of trans identity. If trans women are women, how can they be denied participation in womens sports? I guess as you've mentioned already, you have to use "strict bio-essentialist rules", which I guess boils down to testosterone tests in most cases.

The "non-ranked" point raises a topic I've been thinking alot about. I always wonder, when I hear folks railing about trans women in womens sports...how much of the womens sport in question they actually consume. That goes back to my position regarding actual stakeholders. Take the WNBA for example... "How much WNBA do you actually watch?" If you didn't care about womens NCAA swimming until you heard about trans women participating, then opposition to trans women participating just seems like more malice, that has nothing to do with the sport itself.

If the underlying reason womens sports are less consumed than mens sports has partly to do with the relative level of competition/performance and that is the current/popular justification for the separation between the two, then isn't there some inherent tension between the "fairness" argument and the reality of the relative level of competition? In other words, if the reason we continue to have womens sports is to essentially perpetuate a less competitive (in absolute terms) level of the sport... don't we then have to admit that other considerations, besides absolute competitiveness/performance should play a role in who is allowed to participate?

Gonna combine these two together. Yes you are right. Much of the objections to our participation in sport start from explicitly malicious in nature, by people who don't actually care for women's sports at all, and see in a particular news item an opportunity to introduce a wedge to chip away at our rights and our fair treatment.

I will point out as well though that this "debate" and its terms are not just transphobic, but also sexist. To accept the framework of the position that trans women are men and so should be excluded from women's sports also necessitates conceding a lot of the undergirding positions the argument is built on, namely that: a) men and women are ontologically different creatures whose divergence is at all times and in all respects objectively determinable, b) this objectively determinable divergence always trends in the direction that men are superior to women in all respects; c) that the men's division will always be favored because of this superior performance, and that it is natural and just that men's divisions will always be afforded more attention, more prestige, and more resources than non-men's divisions; d) that women's sports represent a consolation division, one to which none would rightly aspire, but for the fact that its lesser status renders it easier to win; that its sole reason for existence is because men are intrinsically superior, that it represents a hedge to keep men out, rather than a room to bring women together; and that for someone to positively aspire to a woman's division, but must have been done for some ulterior motive (typically having to do either with the aforementioned assumed inherent male dominance or to do with sexualization of women and their spaces).

As with so many of these things, trans women become the canary in the coal mine on women's issues because of the unique intersection we stand upon within patriarchy, but make no mistake, those roads are manifestations of patriarchal oppression of women, and so any attack on us as women necessarily entails a reinforcement of patriarchal norms which oppress all women.

Do you think these drugs are safe for a child. Is denying the natural biological changes the body undergoes the safest course for transitioning?

They appear to be. As Syn noted, puberty blockers first began to be used in the 80s, and in the time they've been used, we haven't found significant side effects that weren't manageable through some combination of diet, exercise, and supplements. As I mentioned in the earlier post, the safest course would be to get trans kids on cross-sex hormones at puberty onset. That way they will be able to experience their adolescent development with their peers while minimizing many of the more irreversible effects of a puberty that may be enormously aggravating to the trans kid. The hormones that we take - estradiol and testosterone are bioidentical, meaning that rather than replicating the effects of the hormone through a different structure, these are literally the same hormones that are produced in the body during the course of typical puberty.

How do you affirm this identity, and encourage social transition and gender exploration?

By asking the child if they want to experiment with a new name and pronouns. By using that name and those pronouns when they decide them. By asking their peers, their teachers, their babysitters, their neighbors, etc. to also use that name and those pronouns when speaking to about the child. By engaging the child in play and socialization that are typical of the gender identity that they claim. By taking the child to buy (and subsequently encouraging them to wear) clothing that they choose, and which is affirming to their claimed gender. And so on.

How can you be certain a child is truly committed to transitioning and not just going over a phase, or acting up?

There's no way to be 100% sure, in the same way that there is no way for you to be 100% sure that you are the gender you say you are. But this also works in reverse: I believed quite strongly that I was a man for the first 24 or 25 years of my life...until I realized that I wasn't. Really all you can do (for anybody!) is go by what they say until they say otherwise. And for parents and pediatricians, observe the child as they say otherwise and see if they tend to say the same things consistently, persistently, and insistently. And for what it's worth, we have some 30+ years of research on youth transition at this point, and what we have tended to find is that kids (and adults!) who say they are trans tend to be very serious when they say that. The incidence of desistence (a child saying they are trans and later saying they are cis) is very rare. Less than 2%.

The easiest way to think about this is to ask the same question in reverse: how do you know a child is truly cis? How do you know they won't at some point come out and say that they are actually trans, that being cis was just going through a phase or acting up? How would you approach raising or treating a (presumed) cis child in this respect? Would you treat their cis-ness as a phase? Would you refrain from letting them go through their cis puberty out of a fear that at some point they may regret having gone through it? Or do you rather assume that the child knows their gender? That when a cis boy tells you he's a boy, that represents a fundamental truth about his being that he truly *knows*? Why should the trans boy be treated any differently in this respect than the cis boy?


What if the treatments are harmful and irreversible? Should parents still be accountable for allowing harm?

What would have described is simply the inverse of what trans people already experience. When a child presents as trans, and the cis parents refuse to allow that child to take puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones that child will undergo the physical, emotional, and social changes of a cis puberty. For trans people, experiencing these changes is extremely harmful. And many of them, like changes to ribcage and hip structure, height, or facial structure are irreversible, or else reversible at great expense and risk in the case of facial structure or breast tissue.

Should parents be held accountable for this harmful and irreversible harm that they have allowed to happen by knowing their child said they were trans and either not believing them or refusing to accept that?
 
The incidence of desistence (a child saying they are trans and later saying they are cis) is very rare. Less than 2%.

And on this point, some of the "desisters" are probably not actually cis but have effectively been tortured into a false confession, as it were.
 
How can you be certain a child is truly committed to transitioning and not just going over a phase, or acting up?

There's no way to be 100% sure, in the same way that there is no way for you to be 100% sure that you are the gender you say you are. But this also works in reverse: I believed quite strongly that I was a man for the first 24 or 25 years of my life...until I realized that I wasn't. Really all you can do (for anybody!) is go by what they say until they say otherwise. And for parents and pediatricians, observe the child as they say otherwise and see if they tend to say the same things consistently, persistently, and insistently. And for what it's worth, we have some 30+ years of research on youth transition at this point, and what we have tended to find is that kids (and adults!) who say they are trans tend to be very serious when they say that. The incidence of desistence (a child saying they are trans and later saying they are cis) is very rare. Less than 2%.

The easiest way to think about this is to ask the same question in reverse: how do you know a child is truly cis? How do you know they won't at some point come out and say that they are actually trans, that being cis was just going through a phase or acting up? How would you approach raising or treating a (presumed) cis child in this respect? Would you treat their cis-ness as a phase? Would you refrain from letting them go through their cis puberty out of a fear that at some point they may regret having gone through it? Or do you rather assume that the child knows their gender? That when a cis boy tells you he's a boy, that represents a fundamental truth about his being that he truly *knows*? Why should the trans boy be treated any differently in this respect than the cis boy?
This is something that I've thought about a lot. There are times that I wonder to myself that maybe I'm only thinking that I'm trans because it's just a phase, that it's trendy and I'm only thinking that way because trans awareness is growing along with the backlash (probably not helped with the kind of people that I live around, I've heard anti trans talk for over a decade). I have this fear that once I'm able to start medically transitioning that I will suddenly realise that this is wrong and I was wrong to think that I'm transgender.

What I thought was the sign that someone was transgender, the "constantly suffering because you want to act like your gender as much as possible and from as young an age as possible" turned out to not be what I thought it was. This idea was so strong that even as a teenager I often thought to myself that wanting to be female doesn't make me transgender because I haven't gone through that suffering. I can't say for sure when I first thought about wanting to be female, but from a young age, around the time I was starting school, I had a sense that maybe boys and girls weren't as different as people said they were. In secondary school I was the isolated kid that all the other boys knew was off so everyone just thought I was gay, even to the point where I started to wonder that myself. At that point I had started to become aware of the existence of trans people but I somehow never linked what I was feeling to being transgender. When I first went online and interacted with other people online, I realised that no one can actually see me, so I could present myself as a woman and no one would know any different, but I didn't know why I wanted to do that. I stopped when I started to make people angry. For the longest time the closest I got to gender expression was choosing the female option in any compter game I play. I didn't really know why I felt more comfortable playing as female characters. I just kept thinking to myself "This is a fantasy world, I can play any character I want. If I want to be a woman then I can be." I have never felt comfortable with being a man and I never liked being called a man, but I thought maybe I just didn't want to accept that I was now an adult. When I went through puberty I was left with a sense of "Is that it?" like something had gone wrong but I didn't know what. Then I look at a woman and wonder to myself what it would be like to have a woman's body, even to the point on wondering what it would be like to have a period or to become pregnant. Still I kept thinking to myself that I couldn't be transgender. Even if I wanted to be transgender, I couldn't be, because I didn't go through that same suffering that I thought all trans people went through.

I wasn't until last year with the growing trans awareness and the backlast that I became aware that for most people they were not only confident in their gender identity but from a young age that I really started to question myself and to look further into what it's like to actually be transgender and after a lot of crying that's when I realised that I'm transgender. That was over a year ago. I haven't stopped thinking about myself as transgender. Every small step I've taken and how I felt every time just confirmed that I was right in thinking that I'm transgender.
 
Should parents be held accountable for this harmful and irreversible harm that they have allowed to happen by knowing their child said they were trans and either not believing them or refusing to accept that?
Should they? Should parents be held accountable raising their kids according to the sex their were born with?

What do you think about teaching trans subjects in school to children?
What do you think about trans exclusive bathrooms?
What do you think about trans exclusive sports divisions?
 
Should they? Should parents be held accountable raising their kids according to the sex their were born with?

What do you think about teaching trans subjects in school to children?
What do you think about trans exclusive bathrooms?
What do you think about trans exclusive sports divisions?

You might want to scroll back in the thread a bit, where our takes on these have already been very well covered.

But the Reader's Digest Condensed Version (is that still a thing?) is:
-Parents should be held accountable for being excessively cruel to their children.
-Children should get a well-rounded education in school which includes "trans subjects" whatever the hell that is.
-Trans exclusive bathrooms are cruel and unnecessary.
-Trans exclusive sports divisions are cruel and untenable.
 
Should they? Should parents be held accountable raising their kids according to the sex their were born with?

I have already answered this question.

What do you think about teaching trans subjects in school to children?

What is a "trans subject"? If it's teaching the concept that we exist, then absolutely, yes.

What do you think about trans exclusive bathrooms?

I think they are demeaning and dangerous. I would not use them if they were installed, but rather would continue to go in the women's, which is where I rightly belong as a woman.

What do you think about trans exclusive sports divisions?

I think they are demeaning, unnecessary, and betray not only a disgust of trans people, but also a contempt for women more broadly, as I elaborated in this post:

I will point out as well though that this "debate" and its terms are not just transphobic, but also sexist. To accept the framework of the position that trans women are men and so should be excluded from women's sports also necessitates conceding a lot of the undergirding sexist assumptions the argument is built on, namely that: a) men and women are ontologically different creatures whose divergence is at all times and in all respects objectively determinable, b) this objectively determinable divergence always trends in the direction that men are superior to women in all respects; c) that the men's division will always be favored because of this superior performance, and that it is natural and just that men's divisions will always be afforded more attention, more prestige, and more resources than non-men's divisions; d) that women's sports represent a consolation division, one to which none would rightly aspire, but for the fact that its lesser status renders it easier to win; that its sole reason for existence is because men are intrinsically superior, that it represents a hedge to keep men out, rather than a room to bring women together; and that for someone to positively aspire to a woman's division, must have been done for some ulterior motive (typically having to do either with the aforementioned assumed inherent male dominance or to do with sexualization of women and their spaces).

As with so many of these things, trans women become the canary in the coal mine on women's issues because of the unique intersection we stand upon within patriarchy, but make no mistake, those roads are manifestations of patriarchal oppression of women, and so any attack on us as women necessarily entails a reinforcement of patriarchal norms which oppress all women.
 
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I will point out as well though that this "debate" and its terms are not just transphobic, but also sexist. To accept the framework of the position that trans women are men and so should be excluded from women's sports also necessitates conceding a lot of the undergirding positions the argument is built on, namely that: a) men and women are ontologically different creatures whose divergence is at all times and in all respects objectively determinable, b) this objectively determinable divergence always trends in the direction that men are superior to women in all respects; c) that the men's division will always be favored because of this superior performance, and that it is natural and just that men's divisions will always be afforded more attention, more prestige, and more resources than non-men's divisions; d) that women's sports represent a consolation division, one to which none would rightly aspire, but for the fact that its lesser status renders it easier to win; that its sole reason for existence is because men are intrinsically superior, that it represents a hedge to keep men out, rather than a room to bring women together; and that for someone to positively aspire to a woman's division, but must have been done for some ulterior motive (typically having to do either with the aforementioned assumed inherent male dominance or to do with sexualization of women and their spaces).
This touches on a couple related points that the recent focus on trans women participation in womens sports made me think about.

First, the notion that men are inherently, unavoidably better at sports is a bit of an illusion. Our whole concept of "sports" has at its core, a perception of "sports" that was largely created by men, for men, to specifically showcase, promote and reward specific strengths that men have, particularly vis-a-vis women and moreover, that society has traditionally promoted as attributes that men should strive to excel at in general vis-a-vis women. I would be very interested to see a new generation of sports that were created by women, for women, based on the attributes society generally promotes in women and see how competitive men would actually be in those.

The second thing I've given some thought to, is the farce, that is often taken for granted as a self-manifesting fundamental assumption about "sports", specifically that "competition" is the only, or most important and therefore sacrosanct component. When the reality is, competition is only one part of what gives "sports" societal value. At every level, but particularly at the professional level, one of the most important, most compelling aspects of "sports" is entertainment. Pro sports, particularly the big 12 (football, basketball, baseball, soccer, hockey, tennis, golf, boxing, MMA, rugby, cricket, olympics) are far and away about entertainment, more than anything else.

Pro-wraslin' is another good example of this. There is zero actual "competition" in the "sport" from an event/match standpoint, because all the outcomes are scripted. However, there is no denying that the participants are athletes and there is no denying that people love the "sport", because its so entertaining, despite the fact that there is no "competitive integrity" whatsoever.

I guess my overall point, as it relates to the topic of this thread, is that one of the most common general arguments against trans women participating in womens sports, ie "it ruins the competitive integrity" is inherently contradictory and based on multiple faulty premises, one being that "competition" is the most important aspect of sports, another being that "competitive integrity" is even present/valid/definable in the first place and another being that men are inherently better at sports... even putting aside the more common underlying, but sometimes unsaid argument, that trans womens identity as women should be rejected.
 
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There are actually already a number of sports which are almost exclusively or at least primarily associated with women, and for many of them, I find myself pretty unimpressed with how well mens performance compares with the performance of women. For just one example there are excellent mens figure skaters but I would absolutely prefer to watch womens figure skating as I find it much more impressive and enjoyable, hands down. Balance-beam is another sport where you don't see many or any men competing and I suspect men would not perform as well as women generally... and there are other sports where this is the case.
 
I would be very interested to see a new generation of sports that were created by women, for women, based on the attributes society generally promotes in women and see how competitive men would actually be in those.
I think the active deconstruction of legacy values and sexual attributed roles carried by both the trans activism and the latest wave of feminism will see that neither a congruent or widely accepted event of woman exclusive/geared sport will happen. Also a trans woman physical attributes most closely mimic the biological sex their were born with, so the natural flexibility and balance that biological women enjoy will make competition for trans woman more difficult.
 
Moderator Action: As a reminder, as per the initial post, "[t]his thread is for questions for trans people and answers for those who want to learn more about trans people. ... It should go without saying, but if you are not trans, do not answer a question or attempt to do so." Thank you.
 
Pressed. The crux of the “issue” is whether we are to be treated as women, or whether it’s alright to treat us as quasi-women (read: men) in certain circumstances. To concede that there are some circumstances where cis people should be allowed to treat us as quasi-women reframes the question around when society is required to treat us fully as women, entitled to the same rights as every other woman, and when society is allowed to treat us as lesser. Speaking for myself, it is deeply insulting that cis people feel perfectly entitled to have these sorts of "debates," and that so many of even the "well-meaning" ones treat it as some periphery issue; an indignity that they can conceded our behalf so they can appear reasonable and well-balanced to their transphobic friends.
The last few posts reminded me that the real purpose of this thread was to ask questions rather than simply offer my own analysis/opinions.

I agree with you that the "separate category" position is often used/raised by people attempting to take a "middle" or compromise stance, to appear "fair-and-balanced" or something along those lines. My question is do you regard that as a development that is indicative of progress in people's attitudes towards the rights and status of trans people? Do you think the fact that a non-insignificant segment of people are now talking about trans-sports, trans-bathrooms etc., as a "compromise" shows positive development in actual attitudes, or do you regard it as nothing more than a reframing of the norms of speech?

I guess another way of asking it, is do you think people's negative attitudes towards trans people and trans rights are mostly staying the same, and they are just searching for more polite/PC/socially acceptable ways to express that opposition? Or are these "compromise" positions indicative of genuine progress in public percetion?
 
Moderator Action: Once again, this is not a debate thread, but (as Sommerswerd notes) one for asking questions, rather than simply offering opinions.

As such, I have deleted a bunch of recent opinions and associated posts, as this is not the thread for them.
 
@schlaufuchs - I went back and read your response to someone else and I think you answered my last question(s) despite the answer not quoting/tagging me. You certainly aren't obligated to answer the same question/issue multiple times as opposed to me just reading your responses to others.
I agree with you that the "separate category" position is often used/raised by people attempting to take a "middle" or compromise stance, to appear "fair-and-balanced" or something along those lines. My question is do you regard that as a development that is indicative of progress in people's attitudes towards the rights and status of trans people? Do you think the fact that a non-insignificant segment of people are now talking about trans-sports, trans-bathrooms etc., as a "compromise" shows positive development in actual attitudes, or do you regard it as nothing more than a reframing of the norms of speech? I guess another way of asking it, is do you think people's negative attitudes towards trans people and trans rights are mostly staying the same, and they are just searching for more polite/PC/socially acceptable ways to express that opposition? Or are these "compromise" positions indicative of genuine progress in public percetion?
About the separate bathrooms:
I think they are demeaning and dangerous. I would not use them if they were installed, but rather would continue to go in the women's, which is where I rightly belong as a woman.
More to the general point of my question...About the separate sports categories:
I think they are demeaning, unnecessary, and betray not only a disgust of trans people, but also a contempt for women more broadly, as I elaborated in this post:
So based on that, I think your answer to my last question is that you think its the former, rather than the latter. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and you care to.

That makes me think about another related question. Do you feel a similar way about the inclusion of trans characters in fictional media/entertainment? More specifically, do you think that the inclusion of trans characters is done mostly for shallow purposes, PC, virtue signaling, tokenism and similar? Or do you think that it shows positive progress in public perception? I realize it may not be an either-or proposition, so if its some combination, or something else entirely, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Meanwhile, I will skim the thread to see if you've already answered this one too.

On a related note. Have you seen Euphoria on NETFLIX HBOMax? If so, would you please share your thoughts on the character Jules?
 
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Euphoria is an HBO show.

In general, LGBT representation has been getting a lot better, including trans rep, which is still often about tokenism.
 
I go to a Catholic school, and I was wondering, what could I source from the Bible that would be pro-trans? Almost everyone there’s conservative and doesn’t like trans people.
 
Wadday'all trans folk think the role of non-binary folks should play in the wider trans/gender non-conforming movement?
I go to a Catholic school, and I was wondering, what could I source from the Bible that would be pro-trans? Almost everyone there’s conservative and doesn’t like trans people.
Gal. 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
 
I go to a Catholic school, and I was wondering, what could I source from the Bible that would be pro-trans? Almost everyone there’s conservative and doesn’t like trans people.

After I came out to my (now-ex)wife, who is evangelical Christian, she read through her Bible and consulted a couple of people she considers authoritative, and none of them found anything in the Bible that references being transgender. Thus, it and transitioning aren't sinful by her read. I realize that doesn't answer your question (other than in the negative), but if you want positive, how about all the "love thy neighbor" guidance? It doesn't say "love thy cis neighbor". Of course, it also doesn't say "love thy hetero neighbor". But it seems pretty clear to me that Jesus really taught people to love each other no matter their skin color, religion, gender identity, social status, etc.
 
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