I hope to stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
And I do literally do that, occasionally - my roommate is non-binary.
[RD] Ask a trans person II: 2 trans 2 sexual
- Thread starter sophie
- Start date
I hope to stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
And I do literally do that, occasionally - my roommate is non-binary.
madviking
north american scum
Glad to hear, but I do have some doubts/reservations about enbies ""belonging"" under the same umbrella as trans folk. While many of the issues facing us both overlap, I get a bit, uh, uneasy about going to the same places as them. I'm not trying to be enbiphobia to myself, but I do realize there are gaps between the two groups. I know that you don't need to transition (medically, etc) to be trans, but that's not the biggest issue facing enbies. I guess, in essence: are all trans orgs/spaces/whatnot necessarily enby inclusionary?
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2010
- Messages
- 8,873
Disclaimer - not a Christian, was raised agnostic.
If you're doing this to find a slam dunk theological argument to get your friends and teachers to support trans people...unfortunately that is unlikely to work. Transphobia isn't really an intellectual dislike, comes from a place of emotional disgust, its hard to logic someone out of that position.
If you're asking this because you want some perspectives or representation of Christianity that aren’t coming at this from an apriori queerphobic position, go nuts! Unfortunately I can't help you there.
I think that this is a misconception - in my experience the gap between enbies and binary trans people is much smaller than most people, even queer people, realise. For instance, with medical transition - I know many enbies (including myself) who have or intend to medically transition and I have met trans women who do not feel the need to do so.
Unfortunately no, there's bound to be at least one space that will be enby exclusionary. I am not sure how many as I have only started coming out, but I would hope the number is fairly low.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
The white stripe in the trans pride flag stands for non-binary, gender-fluid, or any other form of "elsewhere in the spectrum" people. They've always had a place at our table, and I will personally raise hell at anyone trying to exclude them from the trans umbrella.
Chukchi Husky
Lone Wolf
I can't say for a Catholic perspective but from an Evangelical one it's not possible. Take anything from the Bible that can show support or tolerance to trans people and at best they'll just tell you that you're interpreting the Bible wrong and probably bring up something like 1 Corinthians 6:9.
Why would enbies not be trans? Trans does not inherently mean binary. Essentially it's the same argument with bi/pan folks being under the umbrella of not-hetero. How would you react to a gay person telling someone that is bi or pan that queer spaces occasionally shouldn't include them?
Fundamentally I come at it from the standpoint of: I don't get it. But I shouldn't have to get it, to be supportive, the same way I expect cis folk who don't get "the trans thing" to be supportive of me.
EgonSpengler
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2014
- Messages
- 12,260
Quoted for emphasis. And of course it applies to all manner of things, not just those covered by this thread's topic.
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
It’s probably not worth it to attempt to use scriptural arguments in catholic school. Even if they are correct and theological. The Catholic schooling tradition doesn’t exactly support original interpretations of religious text and anyway, you don’t have to have conversations about transness from a religious perspective. People just use the religiosity as an excuse because it has social cachet. Especially if you’re talking to other kids, a majority of them are just repeating their parents’ arguments and will not or cannot think about it with any more care than that. They may not think about it really for years to come, if ever. They are just going with the flow, doing as the parental authorities say, and ostracizing anyone who doesn’t fit in. That is the cruel and inescapable reality of high school. Rather than make yourself miserable trying to debate people who don’t really care, find some people you can get along with and keep your head down. And remember this disappointment and carry it with you. You’ll need it in the years to come.
This just in: The Pope says it's okay. Mostly.
Transgender people can be baptised, Vatican says - BBC News
The Roman Catholic Church says priests can baptise trans people so long as it does not cause "scandal".
www.bbc.com
Cloud_Strife
Deity
I really wouldn't bother unless they're close family members, alot of transphobes simply aren't interested in listening to anything or anyone that challenges their conception of what a trans person is, doubly so if they "vocal" about it
It's why you'll see people on this forum who swear to god they have no issue with trans people and then contradict themselves by constantly advocating for stuff that directly harms us or who seem to forever and a day give rhetoric and groups that are anti trans the benefit of the doubt, it's all bad faith arguments designed to distract from the fact that we're considered an acceptable target
It's why you'll see people on this forum who swear to god they have no issue with trans people and then contradict themselves by constantly advocating for stuff that directly harms us or who seem to forever and a day give rhetoric and groups that are anti trans the benefit of the doubt, it's all bad faith arguments designed to distract from the fact that we're considered an acceptable target
Doesn't trans mean "the other side", in contrast to your own side? How would that work if you're not on one of the two sides?
Honest question. I've seen this a few times on dating apps, and don't understand it.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Think of gender as a spectrum and less of a binary thing.
sophie
Break My Heart
“side” in this analogy doesn’t refer to the gender binary, but rather the relationship to an assigned gender, whatever that gender may be. If the doctor says I am x, and I identify as x, then I am on this side of the gender correspondence. However, if I am y, then I am on the other side of the correspondence (i.e. I don’t correspond). This would also hold true if I was z, α, i, or an Egyptian hieroglyph.
Put in words: trans means that your gender is different that what was assigned to you at birth. I was assigned male at birth, but I am female. Those are different, ergo trans. A nonbinary person presumably also has a gender different than that they were assigned at birth (last I checked doctors don’t tend to assign nonbinary genders to babies) which would make them trans by definition.
Some nonbinary folk don’t subscribe to this definition and don’t identify as trans or falling under the trans umbrella. That’s their prerogative, but most enbies I’ve encountered in my time have identified as trans.
Last edited:
Would then... so most (I guess) binary trans folks aim to adjust their sex to their gender, while nonbinary trans folks would not aim for that, as there is really no option, as there is no "neither" option in this case... right?
(in this case I also do think that the "trans" label is maybe not the best choice, as coming from chemistry, it denotes really only 2 opposing options; and while there are 2, these 2 options do not align with the other case, making this confusing; also there isn't really a cis option in this case either)
(in this case I also do think that the "trans" label is maybe not the best choice, as coming from chemistry, it denotes really only 2 opposing options; and while there are 2, these 2 options do not align with the other case, making this confusing; also there isn't really a cis option in this case either)
Chukchi Husky
Lone Wolf
Nonbinary doesn't mean "genderless", someone nonbinary may find themselves aligning more but not completely with one gender or another. You can get trans femme non binary people and trans masculine non binary people.
sophie
Break My Heart
No. There is no “telos” in transness. I could have done nothing to myself or my body except identify as a woman and I would still be a woman and still be trans. Likewise, there is no predefined end or aim in medical transition. Different people, whether non-binary or no, all have different goals.
I am merely a woman who is changing her body to reduce my distress and make my appearance and internal chemistry more fulfilling and personally validating. I am not “adjusting my sex to my gender” because they are already aligned.
Again, you need to get away from this notion that the lack of correspondence is between sex and gender, there isn’t really a meaningful distinction between the two. The trans in transness is not the lack of correspondence between sex and gender, it is between the mostly arbitrary declaration some doctor made about me when I was 5 minutes old, and the real person I actually am today.
this is not a thread for your random opinions about words.
Regardless, there are two opposing options: does your gender assigned at birth correspond to your actual gender, or does it not? That’s two options. You could think of it like an XOR gate in minecraft Redstone logic. If A is “on” and B is “on” then the gate is off. If A is “on” and B is “off” then the gate is on. Ultimately it does not matter what is causing B to be “off” whether that be that the switch controlling B has been switched off, or a complicated repeater logic has been placed to inverse the flow of a torch, or you took away the torch and replaced it with a block of wood, a sapling, or your cat, whatever the case, so long as B is not “on” the XOR gate will show as “on”. Because the question the XOR gate answers is not what state A or B are in, but whether they are different states.
Last edited:
Cloud_Strife
Deity
You can be a non binary trans femme/woman, basically a trans woman who eschews the traditional expectations associated with being a woman but still identifies as a woman/being feminine enough to be treated/seen as such
