At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks

[Ice_Tyrant]

Hatred is a very small piece of this. I've hated plenty of people in my life (who've done severely wrong by me), I don't obsess on that hate, build an ideaology around it. I do my best to get on with life & get on in society even though I hate many things about society.

Hate is normal, violently slaughtering innocent people not so much.

I never said the world was fair or that the West sticking their nose & weapons where they're not wanted doesn't contribute to this stuff.

I just get annoyed by the trend of always blaming ourselves.

Well if we just use Syria as an example, well there are people I know that I hate too. None of them murdered my family or destroyed my entire way of life though the way many people in Syria have had their lives destroyed. I'm not going to make excuses for terrorist, but maybe there wouldn't be as many as there are if the society they come from wasn't so harsh. Also yeah, many of those middle eastern countries could have been better off if the west hadn't messed with them so much over the last 100 years. It happens in America too. Young black kids growing up in ghettos who end up joining gangs or selling drugs because society at large has abandoned them or treated them so harshly they ended up gravitating to whoever would accept them. A directionless person can feel like part of something if he's fighting for god.

But I do agree that the terrorists are obviously, I mean they are the ones pulling the trigger. I do get bothered when I see liberals attack Christians at the drop of a hat whenever one anywhere does anything obnoxiously conservative, and then when stuff like this happens they shout racism at anybody complaining about Islam. It's just not consistent at all.

I highly doubt that it even needs to be said. There will, of course, be a few isolated incidents of such foolish retaliation, but by and large, nothing will near the scale of your imagination.

It did need to be said, which is just so sad. I don't remember imagining a wide spread murder spree of muslims myself, but if you want to just keep assuming my thoughts for me, then by all means don't let me stop you.

 

[JohnRM]

It did need to be said, which is just so sad. I don't remember imagining a wide spread murder spree of muslims myself, but if you want to just keep assuming my thoughts for me, then by all means don't let me stop you.

You need to calm yourself. I never said you imagined anything, but can we agree that your imagination has the potential to conjure up a scenario that is in excess of even the most likely form that retaliation takes, in France? That being the case, whatever does occur is likely to far less severe than anything you could possibly imagine.

There is no reason to be hyper-sensitive.

 

[Zkribbler]

Did they mean that "all 4 attackers" committed all the attacks or that "all 4 attackers responsible for the attack at Bataclan were dead"? (and the attackers for the other sites are still lose).

I was just watching CNN. The French police earlier implied that ALL attackers are dead. However, now, when asked if your interpretation is correct and other attackers may be on the loose, police spokespersons are sidestepping the question.

CNN points out that the borders remain closed, police are still roaming the streets and are conducting searches, so it certainly looks like some attackers are still at large.

 

[Tigranes]

What's your point?

The point: Islam arrived to the most Muslim countries thanks to the violence supported by it's scripture and inspired by the military exploits of it's founder, who practiced violence. And not by the peaceful preaching of 70 unarmed Apostles most of whom were martyred without fighting back. Even Sub-Saharan contact with Islam was not completely peaceful. Wikipedia quotes two books to say: The Soninke (founders of the ancient empire of Ghana c. 750-1240 CE) originally practiced traditional animistic spirituality.[Shillington, Kevin. History of Africa. New York: MacMillan, 2005. 83] Since the 1076 Almoravid conquest of the Empire of Ghana, the Soninke maintained Sunni Islam as their religion.[Asante, Molefi Kete. The History of Africa: The Quest for Eternal Harmony. New York: Routledge, 2007. 121-2.]

France and Europe would be Muslim by now if not for the failed violence in 732. I mean Muslims did not arrive to France one by one to preach and then be put to death by angry Franks. They have opted for the more violent method: "That army went through all places like a desolating storm, sacking and capturing the city of Bordeaux, after defeating Duke Odo of Aquitaine in battle outside the city, and then again defeating a second army of Duke Odo of Aquitaine at the Battle of the River Garonne, where -- the western chroniclers state -- "God alone knows the number of the slain."

It's very, very important to understand the utmost importance of the uniquely Islamic concept of caliphate, led by caliph —a person considered a political and religious successor to the Islamic prophet, Muhammad, and a leader of the entire Muslim community. One witness in the Bataclan stated that a gunman yelled, "This is because of all the harm done by Hollande to Muslims all over the world." Do you understand? Why did 20,000–25,000 Muslims attack France in 732? Because some of the Franks probably did some harm to Muslims while they been busy with Duke Odo. Why did 7-8 Muslims attack France in 2015? Because French president did some harm to Muslims. Numbers are different, but the motive WILL ALWAYS BE there, because Quran will always be there and thus the holy obligation of jihad: if they fight with you -- fight with them. [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Awful. Just plain dreadful.

 

[chijohnaok]

I was just watching CNN. The French police earlier implied that ALL attackers are dead. However, now, when asked if your interpretation is correct and other attackers may be on the loose, police spokespersons are sidestepping the question.

CNN points out that the borders remain closed, police are still roaming the streets and are conducting searches, so it certainly looks like some attackers are still at large.

I've been watching BBC World News and they have said '7 of the 8 attackers blew up suicide vests. The 8th was shot'.

I'm not sure if the 8th was attempting to blow themselves up.

But from the sound of it there were 8 attackers.

I've heard some expert opine that there may still be a "bomb maker".

And (just my speculation) there may well be additional people involved who may not have participate in the actual attack but may have provided aid and support in the planning and implementation of these attacks.

 

[Zkribbler]

And (just my speculation) there may well be additional people involved who may not have participate in the actual attack but may have provided aid and support in the planning and implementation of these attacks.

I think there has to be. These guys didn't come from nowhere.

 

[chijohnaok]

I think there has to be. These guys didn't come from nowhere.

If all the attackers came from outside France, then it would not be unreasonable to think that they must have had some local contact(s) to help with things.

If at least some of the attackers were French residents, it still would be possible that there were additional knowing (or even unknowing) accomplices.

 

[Tigranes]

Hatred is a very small piece of this. I've hated plenty of people in my life (who've done severely wrong by me), I don't obsess on that hate, build an ideaology around it. I do my best to get on with life & get on in society even though I hate many things about society.

Hate is normal, violently slaughtering innocent people not so much.

Hate is not normal. Hate is a murder for those who really, really seek the truth. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.

I know this is a tall order. If the true ethics were math, hate=murder is the calculus, while an eye for an eye is an arithmetic. Focus on what I am saying now: you actually want to aim for the moral maximum if you want to achieve at least the moral minimum. If you settle for minimum -- you will fall short of it. And the only way to achieve moral maximum is to aim for impossible, holiness, infinite ideal. DO NOT SETTLE for hate. It's already fails you on spiritual level of ideas, and may fail you in the physical world in the moment of the test, when, God forbid, you are in extraordinary situation and you just snap. Aim for impossible -- love your enemy.

 

[Steph]

Live picture

Can someone from France comment on those shiny space blankets covering the people? I got myself one as a souvenir from NASA store at the Kennedy Space Center. Is what I see is a space blanket and is it a standard item for French law enforcement?

This is standard "survival blanket". Very thin and light but effective.
I remember last summer there was a big Scouts meeting in Strasbourg, a big storm wrecked their camp during the night, and these blankets were issued by the firemen

 

[Steph]

Just got up to watch the news

Last update:
- 120 dead at least, including 80 at Bataclan theatre only
- 200 wounded, some very seriously, so death toll likely to increase
- 8 terrorist killed. In Bataclan, 3 of them activated their explosive belts during the police assault. I don't know if any policemen were killed.
- Some reports claim a terrorist said "I'm from Syria, this is Holland fault because of what he did in Syria and Iraq", or something along this line
- Borders are closed, state of emergency declared on the whole country
- Public buildings in Paris, especially schools, closed today

Can a mod update the title of the read? 18 dead is old news now and doesn't reflect the full horror of the attack

 

[Borachio]

Hate is not normal. Hate is a murder for those who really, really seek the truth. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.

I know this is a tall order. If the true ethics were math, hate=murder is the calculus, while an eye for an eye is an arithmetic. Focus on what I am saying now: you actually want to aim for the moral maximum if you want to achieve at least the moral minimum. If you settle for minimum -- you will fall short of it. And the only way to achieve moral maximum is to aim for impossible, holiness, infinite ideal. DO NOT SETTLE for hate. It's already fails you on spiritual level of ideas, and may fail you in the physical world in the moment of the test, when, God forbid, you are in extraordinary situation and you just snap. Aim for impossible -- love your enemy.

I broadly agree. I think.

But I'd also like to point out that hatred, itself, hurts the hater and not the hated.

If you love yourself, and I think you should, you don't hate anyone.

It can be very hard, at times, though.

Yet, aim for the possible -- love yourself.

 

[Bootstoots]

Just got up to watch the news

Last update:
- 120 dead at least, including 80 at Bataclan theatre only
- 200 wounded, some very seriously, so death toll likely to increase
- 8 terrorist killed. In Bataclan, 3 of them activated their explosive belts during the police assault. I don't know if any policemen were killed.
- Some reports claim a terrorist said "I'm from Syria, this is Holland fault because of what he did in Syria and Iraq", or something along this line
- Borders are closed, state of emergency declared on the whole country
- Public buildings in Paris, especially schools, closed today

Can a mod update the title of the read? 18 dead is old news now and doesn't reflect the full horror of the attack

Done, and off to bed myself.

 

[Zkribbler]

Hate is not normal. Hate is a murder for those who really, really seek the truth. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.

I know this is a tall order.

QFT

I utilize the saying: "Satan is the God of Hatred. To hate is a form of Satan worship."

 

[abradley]

What I find most frightening in these attacks is their echoing of the 1968 Tet Offensive.

General Westmoreland had just reported how well we were doing in the war, how the people of South Vietnam loved us, how the communists were on the ropes, and how birdies were singing and bunnies were dancing. Then on Tet, nationwide surprise attacks were launched against more than 100 cities and town. They were foredoomed attacks. The Viet Cong were effectively destroyed and subsequently, North Vietnamese regulars carried on the war.

But the fact that the communist could carry out these scores of sneak attacks, without one word of them leaking out, showed the Vietnamese people were not on our side. There was a sea change in the American people, from being pro-war to anti-war.

Although these attacks are not on the scale of the Tet Offensive, the fact that so many attacks could be carried out without any pre-attack leaks alerting the authorities, is very troubling.

Plenty of warning, more a case of misinterpeting the info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive#Allied_unpreparedness

Plus IIRC the communists had always respected the TET truce.

But this is for another thread.

 

[abradley]

I've been watching BBC World News and they have said '7 of the 8 attackers blew up suicide vests. The 8th was shot'.

I'm not sure if the 8th was attempting to blow themselves up.

But from the sound of it there were 8 attackers.

I've heard some expert opine that there may still be a "bomb maker".

And (just my speculation) there may well be additional people involved who may not have participate in the actual attack but may have provided aid and support in the planning and implementation of these attacks.

Yes, FNC's Catherine Herridge (Intelligence/Pentagon) said that the experts said an operation like this would have at least 24 people involved.

 

[abradley]

Some talk about Hate, can anyone imagine killing enemies you don't hate.

Talk about Post Traumatic Stress.

Talk about night mares.

The living dead!

 

[Kyriakos]

Very horrible.

RIP.

Won't be easy at all to move from this, even for a quite liberal society such as current France.

Then again, there is the inevitable (and logical as a reaction, but still not beneficial at all) effect of this massacre, presented in this image circulating today:

What can i say... I hope this isn't another false-flag-type event (by which i mean something not actually organised at high level by IS or other such powers which frankly don't seem able to hit the center of Paris on their own anyway). And i really hope that POS figures in north europe will at least shy a bit away from taking advantage of the blood shed in France.

But the only way i could end this post is the way it began: indeed this is a devastating event. I hope those most directly affected (now the wounded and the families of the dead) can SOMEHOW manage to rebuild a life for themselves. No one would walk past this unscathed. In fact no sane person would walk past this at all.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Terrible news, I don't know what I can say that hasn't been said already.
There is just one thing I feel the need to point out about refugees, immigrants and terrorism.
Afaik most terrorists attacks by islamist terrorists in Western countries (and I know it's speculation, but the suicide wests don't fit a different group's MO) are not commited by refugees, foreigners or recent immigrants, but by people who are born here or came at a very young age.
The two assailants from the Charlie Hebdo attacks had Algerian parents but were born in France and French nationals, two of three people arrested in a failed bomb plot in Germany in 2007 were converts named Fritz and Daniel, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was nine when he came to the USA in 2003. And then there's the hundreds of Euroepan born young muslims that go off to join ISIS.
People don't come here to kill. The radicalization often happens in the West and has more to do with a failure to integrate and the lack of real integration policies and opportunities.
I know that I'm speculating now, but I find it very likely that most of the attackers were born in France and/or French citizens.

 

[chijohnaok]

deleted