Haha why don't you just flat out say that they're wrong whatever they say.
Either they don't say enough or you ridicule them for saying the obvious.
At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks
- Thread starter GoodEnoughForMe
- Start date
Either they don't say enough or you ridicule them for saying the obvious.
useless
Social Justice Rogue
He doesn't care, nothing they do is good enough, no amount of condemnation, personal sacrifice etc matters.
Take your regressive tone elsewhere. Muslim organizations are not doing enough. Condemning terrorism is not enough. Nobody, Muslim or not, is earning any points by condeming horrendous violence.
No amount of condemnation matters, you're right. Condemnation of horrendous acts goes without saying. I expect more. Not neccessarily personal sacrifice. But not denying that Islamism has to do with Islam would be a good start.
useless
Social Justice Rogue
Thats akin to expecting christians to apologise for the LRA or Westboro baptist church does and is equally insane.
I suppose that in most Muslims' understanding of Islam the terrorists are acting against Islamic teachings, so if they come out and say "yes Islam teaches terrorism" they would be lying. Do you want them to lie?
Or do you want these people to believe that the terrorists are practicing "real" Islam. Do you want them to believe that to practice their faith they must kill innocent people?
Presumably they don't want to kill people so now they'll have to abandon their identity, which had to be redefined in the first place because of the actions of a minority that they condemn. Does that seem fair?
Akka
Moody old mage.
If it goes beyond just being PR talk, yes. If not, well, it's just PR talk, and we all know what these are worth.
For the record : I don't ask them to grab a gun and go fight ISIS, but to actively teach their own about tolerance, integrating in their host country and how secularist laws trump religious laws. If they already do it, fine. If not, they're just blowing hot air.
Okay, but if your standards go beyond statements, then don't criticize them only based on their statements.
This is really just a predictable pattern that we've seen often enough:
Person A: "Muslim organizations should not only distance themselves from terrorists, but condemn them."
Person B: "Actually they did. [source]"
Person A: "Well it doesn't matter what they say it's their actions that count!"
Goalpost: *rolls by*
This is really just a predictable pattern that we've seen often enough:
Person A: "Muslim organizations should not only distance themselves from terrorists, but condemn them."
Person B: "Actually they did. [source]"
Person A: "Well it doesn't matter what they say it's their actions that count!"
Goalpost: *rolls by*
Cheetah
Deity
The thing is that saying that thinking murder is wrong is implicit in being a decent human being. To condemn this attack is the most minimal bar that can be expected.
In addition to that, I'd also like to see some acknowledgement that Islam does lend itself to ideologies like Islamism, and that not only are they opposed to Islamism, but that they're supportive of secular, liberal life and values. Open, active Muslim support for that has been quite lacking during the last couple of decades, and it could certainly be nice to hear it repeated.
I have a strong desire to see a willingness to reform Islam.
I want to see and hear more Muslims like Maajid Nawaz:
Are the Westboro Baptist Church and the LRA committing acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity around the globe on a daily basis? The scope of the problem is not even close. That said, I do expect Christians to ackowledge that the homophobic crap coming from the WBC is taken from the bible.
I want them to ackowledge that Islamists have a very plausible understanding of the faith. I want them to ackowledge that the Koran and the Hadith contain hundreds of incitements of violence which the Islamists use to justify their actions. This is not about "real" Islam or whatever, it is about simply acknowledging that the doctrines of Islam inspire millions of Muslims to behave in dispicable ways.Tee Kay said:
Why do I want them to acknowledge that? Because without identifying a problem there is no way to solve it.
What about the Peshmerga soldiers - their ranks are predominantly pious Muslims - who took Sinjar back from ISIS the other day? How about Hezbollah militants and Revolutionary Guardsmen - those are actual Islamists - who've lost more in the fight against jihadists in Syria than all the Western casualties combined many times over. How about the Muslim armies and militias who are France's allies in West Africa. The Muslim soldiers in the volunteer military of India who remained loyal despite a prime minister who literally presided over massacres of Muslim civilians. The soldiers of Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, and Algeria who are allies of the West on the frontlines and in the trenches while the West sits back and shoots missiles from drones and blowing up the odd wedding reception.
We are at war are we not. In a war you are not supposed to undermine your allies. And people like you are treating our allies like faeces.
Well, the situation in the Middle East has become so dire that huge terrorist and paramilitary Islamist organizations like Hezbollah, or brutal dictators like Assad are the lesser evils when compared to the alternatives.
What I am talking about though is the war of ideas. In the long run, Islam has to be reformed and cleansed of its violence. It is the only way we will be able to create and sustain a global peaceful society. The only people who can help bring on this reform are moderate Muslims. And yet it is they who largely deny that there is any problem with Islam in the first place, since according to them Islam is peaceful and Islamists have nothing to do with Islam, which is just obvious crazy talk.
Watch the video posted by Cheetah a few posts up. Maajid Nawaz is a shining example of how I expect moderate Muslims to tackle the problems within their faith.
Google up liberal Muslim blogs and forums and organisations.
I read lots of liberal Muslim blogs. There are a lot out there, but the media (and not just in the West) only ever give voice to the jihadists. Liberal Muslims around the world are fighting an uphill battle, against conservatives in their community, against actual jihadists, against your usual "Third World" woes of poverty and political violence, and against disbelieving liberals in the West. I tried to tell a close friend of Muslim feminists and he simply could not believe that they could ever exist.
Least you can do is go look for them.
Cheetah
Deity
I know they exist!
My point was to point out what I wanted to see from organisations purporting to "officially" represent Muslims! All I get is boilerplate condemnation for murders, but no acknowledgements of the problems within Islam, nor a willingness for reform!
My point was to point out what I wanted to see from organisations purporting to "officially" represent Muslims! All I get is boilerplate condemnation for murders, but no acknowledgements of the problems within Islam, nor a willingness for reform!
I have a pretty good overview of moderate Muslim blogs, forums and organizations. The general message I get out of them is that Islam is a peaceful religion that has just been hijacked by extremists. Their concerns seem to lie much more on preventing what they perceive to be bigotry towards Muslims than on tackling the violence and other problems within their faith.
I am open of course to modifying my opinion if you can point me to all those Muslims who openly talk about reforming Islam like Nawaz does, who the media just ignore.
One huge problem, which Nawaz mentions in his book with Sam Harris by the way, is that in most countries you will find large majorities of Muslims who reject violence, yet hold beliefs towards women, non-believers, homosexuals, secularism etc. which are absolutely appalling. It's a wide spectrum. Nawaz says that he lost many potential supporters against jihadism when they found out that he also wanted to tackle other aspects of Islam like gender inequality etc. This just shows that secular Muslims have to be all the louder, certainly much louder than they have been.
There are no problems within Islam. There are problems within several Islamic countries, and Europe is partially responsible for their creation.
Farm Boy
I hope you dance
- Joined
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You aren't going to get this. You can get secular laws coexisting in the big bag of humanity with God's laws, at least most of the time. You can even get reconciliation between the two, but you won't get the rank you want there. The best you'll get out of trumping is a suppression by threat of force.
sophie
Break My Heart
btw there was also an IS-arranged bombing in Beirut yesterday:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/isil-claims-suicide-bombings-southern-beirut-151112193802793.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/isil-claims-suicide-bombings-southern-beirut-151112193802793.html
So you want those organizations (that don't really represent Muslims, Islam is very decentralized) to do what ? Their teachings are already miles away from the teachings of ISIS, and that is the case in the huge majority of mosques. What can they do ? Also how do you reform a religion that is completely decentralized ? Who has the authority to make decisions and how do they enforce them ?
Note that most terrorists are recent converts. They get drawn into ISIS propaganda the same way someone would be drawn into a cult. It's precisely the same method.
ISIS is so extreme that a philosopher close to Al Qaida condemned the attack. Even Al Qaida thinks that what they're doing is contrary to Islamic teachings. That's how far ISIS is from Islam.
Your reaction drives into the terrorists' belief that the West hates Islam as a religion and that all Muslims should join them and destroy the West. For the past 15 years they have tried to make the world a place of irreconcilable war between Islam and the West, don't fall into their trap.
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