At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks

[Kyriakos]

SINONE, Iraq — The Islamic State claimed responsibility on Saturday for the
catastrophic attacks in the French capital, calling them “the first of the storm”
and mocking France as a “capital of prostitution and obscenity,” according to
statements released in multiple languages on one of the terror group’s
encrypted messaging accounts.

The statement was released on the same Telegram channel that was used
to claim responsibility for the crash of a Russian jet over the Sinai Peninsula
two weeks ago, killing 224 people. As in that case, it made the announcement
in multiple languages and audio recordings.
President François Hollande of France said on Saturday that the Islamic
State was responsible Analysts said that the nature of the attacks was more in
keeping with actions of the Islamic State than with those of Al Qaeda, and the
timing and extent of the celebration expressed online by the group’s
supporters added weight to the claim.

“Eight brothers, wrapped in explosive belts and armed with machine
rifles, targeted sites that were accurately chosen in the heart of the capital of
France,” the group said in the statement, “including the Stade de France
during the match between the Crusader German and French teams, where the
fool of France, François Hollande, was present.”
“Let France and those who walk in its path know that they will remain on
the top of the list of targets of the Islamic State,” the statement added,
referring to the attacks at the Bataclan concert hall and several districts in
Paris.

The style of the attack was in line with the Islamic State’s tactic of
indiscriminate killings and goes against Al Qaeda’s guidelines. In a 2013
directive, the leader of Al Qaeda, Ayman al Zawahri, stated that Qaeda
operatives should avoid attacks that could inadvertently cause the death of
Muslim civilians and noncombatant women or children.
He argued that targeting markets, for example, was unadvisable because
innocent Muslims might accidentally be killed.
Although Qaeda branches have deviated from these guidelines on
numerous occasions, their attacks reflect more carefully defined targeting, as
was the case in the killings at the Charlie Hebdo office in Paris in January.

Such statements always sound generic to the tone that you'd expect the exact same thing if the author wrote them as a direct attempt to frame some other supposed author as an utter loon. I personally do find it hard to believe that:
a) Isis has the ability to translate a text to tens of languages; they supposedly shun any knowledge outside of islam or whatever
b) Isis has that ability, yet deems Germany as 'crusader'. Germany is corrupt and demagogue-run and has an uber-taboo past unresolved, but to call it 'crusader' is just an irrational term. If anything (if tied to war in the middle east effort) it would be likened to a merchant of arms, not an actual invading army. Yet if one wanted to just frame muslims he would have chosen terms like 'crusader' even for Germany.

Isis, whatever it is, only exists due to the US led destruction of Iraq. I fear we are being presented a computer-game 'reality' by media, where the death of one supposed 'important Isis figure' leads to a massacre in Paris on the same day? Ok. Sounds way too much like 'agents of Goldstein did this', moreso when as with Al-Qaeda the Isis is presented in a very dubious and trope-ridden manner, and we do not actually know what they are, nor if they are capable of attacks of this level.

 

[El_Machinae]

Here's the problem with the 'police their own' argument.

Super Bowl Sunday is one of the single most deadly days on America's roads
due to drunk driving, matched only by New Year's Eve and St. Patrick's Day.
On the average day, 44 people die in alcohol-related traffic crashes,
accounting for 40 percent of highway deaths. However, over the past six Super
Bowl Sundays, an average of 59 people were killed in alcohol crashes

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...-drunk-driving-days-of-the-year-75744737.html

So, basically, the Superbowl kills ~15 people per year (on that front, alone). Can I expect a Superbowl fan to condemn drunk driving? Sure I can. Can I expect people to police their friends? Sure. But how much?

Can I find out you watched to Superbowl and then get mad at you for 'not doing enough to prevent Superbowl murders'? Not really. They're literally nothing you can do, other than say you object. You immediately think that the drivers are not 'the type of fan you are'.

We're crazy bad at math when we're afraid or when we detect agency behind a threat. A passenger plane would need to blow up every few months before taking a flight approached the risk of driving for a year. Anyone who was 'afraid' of getting on a plane would get approval. But their math would be bad.

 

[Akka]

You aren't going to get this. You can get secular laws coexisting in the big bag of humanity with God's laws, at least most of the time. You can even get reconciliation between the two, but you won't get the rank you want there. The best you'll get out of trumping is a suppression by threat of force.

Then they have no business living in secular countries and end up giving the far-right munitions.

 

[Cheetah]

There are no problems within Islam. There are problems within several Islamic countries, and Europe is partially responsible for their creation.

Please tell me you're missing a sarcasm tag. I'm having a hard time discerning the difference at the moment.

You aren't going to get this. You can get secular laws coexisting in the big bag of humanity with God's laws, at least most of the time. You can even get reconciliation between the two, but you won't get the rank you want there. The best you'll get out of trumping is a suppression by threat of force.

We got it with Christianity. We can get it with Islam too.

btw there was also an IS-arranged bombing in Beirut yesterday:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/isil-claims-suicide-bombings-southern-beirut-151112193802793.html

Two days ago now, IIRC. And yes, it was also terrible.

Norwegian media presented it as having the first Norwegian victim of Daesh, which I found to be in somewhat bad taste, but media always likes the local angle...

So you want those organizations (that don't really represent Muslims, Islam is very decentralized) to do what ? Their teachings are already miles away from the teachings of ISIS, and that is the case in the huge majority of mosques. What can they do ? Also how do you reform a religion that is completely decentralized ? Who has the authority to make decisions and how do they enforce them ?

Note that most terrorists are recent converts. They get drawn into ISIS propaganda the same way someone would be drawn into a cult. It's precisely the same method.

ISIS is so extreme that a philosopher close to Al Qaida condemned the attack. Even Al Qaida thinks that what they're doing is contrary to Islamic teachings. That's how far ISIS is from Islam.

Your reaction drives into the terrorists' belief that the West hates Islam as a religion and that all Muslims should join them and destroy the West. For the past 15 years they have tried to make the world a place of irreconcilable war between Islam and the West, don't fall into their trap.

Has this not been thoroughly explain already!?

Being more moral than Daesh is implicit in not being a completely evil maniac! There are no bonus points for it.

I've already said what they can do, both as organisations and as individuals: Speak up for secular, liberal values! Actively speak out for women's rights and gender equality! Argue for humans rights in general, and for tolerance towards homosexuals, apostates and atheists! Acknowledge that Islam can be used to argue for terrible things, and that Daesh interpretation is a possible interpretation. Reform Islam!

 

[Kyriakos]

While it is more popular in Islam currently (and actually for a few centuries now) to promote the more loon/autocratic/bloodlust verses there, it should be noted that the Christian texts are not much less filled with lunacy of this manner.

Ultimately both are decadent religions, and have the old testament within them as well.

So if the social/economic conditions would allow it, we would indeed be seeing christian terrorism as well. They just do not, for the time being.

As for jewish terrorism, well...

 

[Ajidica]

Acknowledge that Islam can be used to argue for terrible things, and that Daesh interpretation is a possible interpretation. Reform Islam!

The sticking point is that the bulk of Muslims do not consider what ISIS calls "Islam" as being Islam.

 

[red_elk]

Please tell me you're missing a sarcasm tag. I'm having a hard time discerning the difference at the moment.

I wasn't being sarcastic. The recent problems with immigrants, ISIS and resurgence of terrorism are the result of several countries in Middle East and Africa being screwed up. And France directly participated in destruction of one of those countries, Libya.

 

[aelf]

You know what happened when Christianity 'reformed' itself? Yep, the Thirty Years' War.

I think moderate Muslims' approach is way better. If the goal is peace, trying to splinter the faith more by drawing a line between the 'loyalists' and 'reformists' isn't going to help as much as peacefully going about their lives. ISIS is a product of imperialist adventures and war; it will continue to attract psychopaths, and there is as much that moderate Muslims can do to fix it as you can do to fix the banking system.

If you want more war in the Middle East that will spill over to Europe, then, sure, calling for the moderates to "reform Islam" is probably one way to go about it.

 

[Ice_Tyrant]

One of the reasons I've kept coming back to this forum over the last 7 or so years is that it always seemed like a good place for intelligent discussion on the things going on in the world. It's really upsetting to see so much Islamophobia here. To really say that this is all as simple as "Oh, they read a holy book and now they are violent." is just ignorant. There is at least nearly 100 years of history that has gone into creating Islamic extremism. If it was really the norm for Islam all this time, then I don't understand how Muslims could have ever built thriving civilizations in places such as India or Turkey.I think all this extremism was actually born as a reaction against Western Imperialism in the 20th century.

 

[AdrienIer]

I've already said what they can do, both as organisations and as individuals: Speak up for secular, liberal values! Actively speak out for women's rights and gender equality! Argue for humans rights in general, and for tolerance towards homosexuals, apostates and atheists! Acknowledge that Islam can be used to argue for terrible things, and that Daesh interpretation is a possible interpretation. Reform Islam!

But why would they need to argue for tolerance when they and everyone they know are already as tolerant as the rest of society ?

They can't reform the Quran, which is just as full of absurdities as the Bible and the Torah. But Islam as a religion is just as compatible with our societies as Christianity or Judaism.

 

[civman110]

SJWs take to twitter to condemn the Paris terrorist attacks for stealing their spotlight and yes, white people are racist.

How dare all those people get killed in Paris.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

To be fair, there were a bunch of conservative pundits saying that black American's problems are unimportant in light of this. I saw the tweets.

 

[civman110]

To be fair, there were a bunch of conservative pundits saying that black American's problems are unimportant in light of this. I saw the tweets.

So, an alleged poop swastika is more important than a terrorist attack that slaughtered +140 people?

As they said, "Both situations are equally messed up!" and "A supposed 'safe space' is also terrorism" and "Interesting how the news is covering the Paris attacks, but not the terrorist attack at Mizzou."

 

[Leoreth]

I find it distateful how you are trying to distract from these events by complaining about black protesters again.

 

[Phrossack]

The sticking point is that the bulk of Muslims do not consider what ISIS calls "Islam" as being Islam.

But they can't claim that ISIS and other radicals aren't true Muslims without committing takfir. And who are we non-Muslims to say that those radicals aren't true Muslims?

 

[civman110]

I find it distateful how you are trying to distract from these events by complaining about black protesters again.

How am I distracting from events exactly? By pointing out that SJW protesters are distracting from those events?

 

[Bootstoots]

Moderator Action: No more mention of 'SJWs' in this thread. That is completely off-topic.

edit: or the Missouri or Yale protests, etc.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[aelf]

Do we know if ISIS is really responsible for this yet?

If that turns out to be the case, I wonder if there are still people who think the Second Gulf War was a good idea who are not also stupid and insane.

 

[Kyriakos]

Do we know if ISIS is really responsible for this yet?

If that turns out to be the case, I wonder if there are still people who think the Second Gulf War was a good idea who are not also stupid and insane.

Only obvious thing is that media operate on a "say this without checking if true as long as oligarch/government X supports it" attitude, as they have been for quite some time.

And by now it is both more open and less opposed than it was with the pitiful BBC support for Clinton/Blair's (also Germany and France) war in Serbia back in 1999.

We know next to nothing about whether Isis has ability to attack Paris, or how it survives in the chaos left in Iraq by the US.

 

[chijohnaok]

You know what happened when Christianity 'reformed' itself? Yep, the Thirty Years' War.

I think moderate Muslims' approach is way better. If the goal is peace, trying to splinter the faith more by drawing a line between the 'loyalists' and 'reformists' isn't going to help as much as peacefully going about their lives. ISIS is a product of imperialist adventures and war; it will continue to attract psychopaths, and there is as much that moderate Muslims can do to fix it as you can do to fix the banking system.

If you want more war in the Middle East that will spill over to Europe, then, sure, calling for the moderates to "reform Islam" is probably one way to go about it.

[my bold emphasis above]

'Splinters' within Islam (Shia and Sunni) have been fighting amongst themselves in case you hadn't noticed.