At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks

[Ryika]

All the refugees will now suffer, all the muslims, anyone of arabic descent or north african will face increased suspicion and persecution because of this if it turns out to be an IS attack, even though they have nothing to do with this and aren't to blame.

Your very first comment on this is not showing compassion with the people who are not to blame and DEAD but instead for the people who may suffer in the future?

Anyway. @topic: Any new news on the situation in Bataclan? German TV reports that police is getting active there, but can't find any sources to verify.
/edit: Ah, some hostages seem to have been rescued.

 

[dutchfire]

Moderator Action: Given the serious situation, I've changed this thread to Red Diamond. Please post accordingly.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Moderator Action: That means taking your Iraq discussion somewhere else
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[chijohnaok]

Heard a report that Paris is under curfew for the first time since 1944.

 

[Joecoolyo]

As someone who lives in an area with a sizeable Muslim minority, this is also something that frightens me too. The Muslims and other Middle Easterners here - or anyone who looks "brown" enough - is definitely going to be fearful. I mean, I heard how someone assaulted a goddamn Greek Orthodox priest because he "looked" "Muslim".

Remember that attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin a year or so ago? It is frightening.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Seems like the police raid on Bataclan might be over. More dead and wounded. This is terrible.

Seems to be mixed reports on the total number of attacks and bombings overall. There is unfortunately going to be a high death toll... might be the highest in Europe since the attacks on Britain a while ago.

Remember that attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin a year or so ago? It is frightening.

Yeah, that was not good.

 

[abradley]

Concert hall cleared, two gunmen killed.

 

[Cheetah]

Suicide bombing is such an effective tactic I'm really surprised more groups haven't picked up on it. Poor man's smart bomb, and such.

I think the Islamist suspicion always trails attacks like this mostly due to just how organized they are. Islamist groups are probably some of the most experienced in this sort of conflict, and they have the personnel, knowledge, and training to pull it off.

However, one should not discount the other possibilities, like with Brevik. They may not have the experience, but with all the information out there anyone should be capable of learning how to pull off these multi-stage attacks. We must wait patiently before jumping to conclusions.

The weapons or technologies aren't specific to Islamists. The ability to organize multiple people for coordinated attacks is. As I said earlier, European extreme right wing groups could have had such an ability, but they were completely broken apart by police and intelligence work during the 90's. There aren't any other groups which can reasonably be suspected to be behind this.

And suicide bombing is somewhat effective, but it requires a certain culture in the group to even be considered. At this time in history, Islamists seem to be the only groups capable of it.

All the refugees will now suffer, all the muslims, anyone of arabic descent or north african will face increased suspicion and persecution because of this if it turns out to be an IS attack, even though they have nothing to do with this and aren't to blame.

Probably.

It went fairly well after the Charlie Hebdo attacks though. Hopefully it won't get out of hand this time either.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Your very first comment on this is not showing compassion with the people who are not to blame and DEAD but instead for the people who may suffer in the future?

Humanity hurts with an attack like this. Not Frenchmen, not Muslims. Everyone is in pain, and everyone will be in pain in the aftermath.

There is nothing wrong with sympathizing with those who will suffer from these attacks along with those suffering the attacks.

As a fellow human, it all hurts the same.

 

[Rashiminos]

Do we have any confirmation that this is an Islamist attack? People are already reacting as if that was the case, just speculation or have I missed something?

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if press coverage begins to make it feel confirmed in the next 72 hours,

If there is that much deads, I doubt it'll be avoidable. Tensions are pretty high about immigration these days, especially with the Syrian problem, so if it's yet another islamic attack, it will certainly have an effect.

This is getting worse and worse. This cannot end well. And now with all the refugees and the Syrian crisis and so on.... Oh boy.

@Leoreth: I've heard some rumours that people heard some of them say Allahu Akbar, I think there's no official information yet.

given that a number of people are primed for that conclusion,

@Leoreth: Uncomfirmed reports that some of the attackers shouted Allahu Akbar.

Also, it seems that the police and the media are telling everyone to not report on anything happening currently at the Baclalan theatre or concerning police movements as it could inform the attackers.

and control of the narrative is being established.

 

[Mouthwash]

Wikileaks just posted this on Twitter: At least 39 dead in French terror attacks this evening. France has closed borders. US, UK, France fed ISIS. Not so funny now, is it?

 

[Ryika]

Humanity hurts with an attack like this. Not Frenchmen, not Muslims. Everyone is in pain, and everyone will be in pain in the aftermath.

There is nothing wrong with sympathizing with those who will suffer from these attacks along with those suffering the attacks.

As a fellow human, it all hurts the same.

So if IS kills your family you would be fine with me saying "Damn, this will be bad for peaceful Muslims." two hours after that? Don't want to drag this into a petty discussion, but... of course we should be aware of all consequences, that kind of behavior just seems completely out of place to me.

 

[Joecoolyo]

The weapons or technologies aren't specific to Islamists. The ability to organize multiple people for coordinated attacks is. As I said earlier, European extreme right wing groups could have had such an ability, but they were completely broken apart by police and intelligence work during the 90's. There aren't any other groups which can reasonably be suspected to be behind this.

And suicide bombing is somewhat effective, but it requires a certain culture in the group to even be considered. At this time in history, Islamists seem to be the only groups capable of it.

I'm not an expert on the European far-right, so I cannot comment on how neutered they are. However, it does no good to underestimate an enemy.

IIRC, it was the Tamil Tigers who perfected the use of the suicide bomb, and proved its usefulness. I really don't think it requires a specific culture at all, rather just a desperate enough situation where people need to die, and it doesn't matter if the killer dies along in the process.

Islamist groups, in their insurgency and terrorism, might be the largest group of people in that category, but I do not think it is useful to say they are the only people in that category.

 

[Leoreth]

Your very first comment on this is not showing compassion with the people who are not to blame and DEAD but instead for the people who may suffer in the future?

I think it goes without saying that everyone in this thread commiserates the victims of this attack. I didn't feel the need to explicitly put into words what I thought everyone was feeling.

In the face of terrible suffering that nobody could prevent, it seems like a human reaction to turn your attention to future suffering that might be prevented.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Paris is now under curfew. Situation at Bataclan seems to be confirmed to be over for now.

Map posted on reddit of the attacks:

 

[Cheetah]

So if IS kills your family you would be fine with me saying "Damn, this will be bad for peaceful Muslims." two hours after that? Don't want to drag this into a petty discussion, but... of course we should be aware of all consequences, that kind of behavior just seems completely out of place to me.

To me, yours and c_h's posts are rather disturbing for the fact that you completely ignore the possibility that any of the victims might be Muslims.

 

[Joecoolyo]

So if IS kills your family you would be fine with me saying "Damn, this will be bad for peaceful Muslims." two hours after that? Don't want to drag this into a petty discussion, but... of course we should be aware of all consequences, that kind of behavior just seems completely out of place to me.

It's not an either/or. Sure, IS killing my family would have a massive impact on me and I would grieve for them. That does not preclude a collective grieving for everyone else as well.

I stand by this tragedy, and all other tragedies, as collective sufferings of humanity. And I fear more suffering for humanity in the future because of them.

 

[red_elk]

My condolences.
Serious oversight of French special services.

 

[EgonSpengler]

From Associated Press:

12:00am local time

Two Paris police officials say security forces have ended their assault on a concert hall filled with hostages, killing at least two attackers. Neither official could be named, citing ongoing operations throughout the city.

One official described "carnage" inside the building, saying the attackers had tossed explosives at the hostages. Both officials said they expected the toll of victims to rise.

 

[Ryika]

To me, yours and c_h's posts are rather disturbing for the fact that you completely ignore the possibility that any of the victims might be Muslims.

This does not follow, his post clearly stated that he was talking about people who may suffer because people don't differentiate between them and ISIS or otherwise make them responsible for what happened.

 

[Cheetah]

I'm not an expert on the European far-right, so I cannot comment on how neutered they are. However, it does no good to underestimate an enemy.

IIRC, it was the Tamil Tigers who perfected the use of the suicide bomb, and proved its usefulness. I really don't think it requires a specific culture at all, rather just a desperate enough situation where people need to die, and it doesn't matter if the killer dies along in the process.

Islamist groups, in their insurgency and terrorism, might be the largest group of people in that category, but I do not think it is useful to say they are the only people in that category.

I should have added that police have generally kept an eye on the remains of extreme right groups ever since, so as to make sure they wouldn't grow again.

I agree with the rest of your post in spirit. I should perhaps have been clearer, but I was talking about the culture within the groups themselves. Both the Islamists and the Tamil Tigers had an internal culture which lent itself to consider suicide bombers.