At Least 120 Dead in Paris Attacks

[useless]

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask? Lying to everyone, as they have been doing for 15 years now, instead of being man enough to take some responsibility for belonging to the same death cult that leads to ISIS and global terror, is nothing but pure cowardice. And it will only increase the divide between them and non-Muslims, since by now the news has spread into the last corners of Europe that Islamists offer a very plausible version of the faith. Continuing to deny that, in 2015, after years and years of barbaric violence and terror committed in the name of Islam, will only further sow distrust and contempt.

Absolute nonsence, this no more reflects on Islam than the LRA reflects upon christianity as a whole, not even getting into the fact that IS hates a great deal of muslims purely for their differing stances on the Quran etc and last time i checked the bible, the worship of heaven is eeirly similar to that of a "death cult".

These people are extremists and are the worst kind of scum, but you're playing straight into their hands, no wonder Muslims feel so distant in the west when all we do is constantly remind them of the nutters that claim they're acting on their behalf (even though they're not) and how that clouds societies view of them.

 

[Tee Kay]

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask?

They are doing both?

Statement from one of the main German Muslim organisations, the ZMD

Der Zentralrat der Muslime in Deutschland (ZMD) verurteilt diese schrecklichen und orchestrierten Kriegsattacken gegen die Menschlichkeit gestern Nacht (13.11.2015) in Paris aufs Schärfste.

ZMD-Vorsitzender Aiman Mazyek sagte dazu in einer ersten Reaktion: „Wir sind tief erschüttert über diesen feigen und perfiden Massenmord. Wir stehen solidarisch an der Seite Frankreichs und trauern um die vielen Opfer und sind in Gedanken und Gebeten bei den Familienangehörigen.“

Diese Terroristen führen Krieg gegen die Menschlichkeit und damit auch direkt gegen den Islam. Ihr Ziel, Panik, Hass und Zwietracht zwischen den gesellschaftlichen Gruppen und Religionen zu säen, wird niemals aufgehen, wenn wir wachsam, entschlossen und vor allem gemeinsam handeln. Wir appellieren insbesondere an Medien und Politik den Terroristen nun nicht auf dem Leim zu gehen, indem ihre pseudo-religiösen Begründbarkeiten einfach unkritisch übernommen werden und damit der Vereinnahmung des Islam weiter Vorschub geleistet wird.

(The Central Council of Muslims in Germany (ZMD) condemns these horrific attacks and orchestrated war against humanity last night (13.11.2015) in Paris in the strongest terms.

ZMD Chairman Aiman ​​Mazyek commented in a first reaction: "We are deeply shocked by this cowardly and perfidious mass murder. We are in solidarity on the side of France and mourn for the many victims and are in thoughts and prayers for the family members."

These terrorists wage war against humanity and thus directly against Islam. Their goal, to sow panic, hatred and discord between the social groups and religions, will never succeed if we are vigilant, resolute and act together. We appeal in particular to the media and politics not to fall for the terrorists' trap, by uncritically accepting their pseudo-religious justifications [for their actions] and thus further encourage the appropriation of Islam [by the terrorists])

So let's not continue this nonsense line about "Muslims not condemning terrorism".

 

[T-mun]

Why did 20,000–25,000 Muslims attack France in 732? Because some of the Franks probably did some harm to Muslims while they been busy with Duke Odo.

Totally off-topic but I often read this old legend: in 732, there was no France. There was Austrasia and Neustria taking part in a fight between the Umayyads and Odo duke of Aquitaine, and the conflict ended with Charles invading the Aquitaine. The Umayyads weren't stopped at all and still conquered lands in the south of today's France until 760.
During the 19th century, France built its own history and needed heroes to support its growing nationalism, and promoted Charles Martel, Joan of Arc, Vercingetorix, etc.
Joan of Arc is still revered by the far right wing and Jeanne (Joan) is the name of Mrs LePen's own micro-party inside the National Front party.

 

[useless]

Hey look, more muslims condemning all forms of violence, specifically the one that occured last night:

Here's some choice tweets:

My name is Maz Hussain Raja. I am a Muslim. I condemn the #ParisAttack. Over 1.5 billion Muslims do. Please remember this.

I am a Muslim. And I condemn every kind of violence. My thought and prayer are with the victims of the tragedy. #ParisAttacks #Gaza

My name is Asrul, I am a Muslim and I strongly condemn the #ParisAttacks

I am a #Muslim and I am not terrorist. #ParisAttacks

I am a #Muslim and I am not terrorist. I believe in humanity. I believe in peace. My Islam taught it! I extremely condemn #ParisAttacks.

I am a Muslim and I unconditionally denounce all violence against innocent people whoever and wherever they are. #ParisAttacks

...And the list goes on, but watch as people ignore this and continue to blame all muslims for this.

 

[Akka]

The Islamic State claimed responsibility on Saturday for the catastrophic attacks in the French capital, calling them “the first of the storm”
and mocking France as a “capital of prostitution and obscenity,”

I don't think I'll ever be able to grasp even the basis of the intellectual dissonance from people who accuse their foes of "prostitution and obscenity" and then thrive on sex slavery and mass rape. It just makes my head hurt.

 

[T-mun]

Absolute nonsence, this no more reflects on Islam than the LRA reflects upon christianity as a whole, not even getting into the fact that IS hates a great deal of muslims purely for their differing stances on the Quran etc and last time i checked the bible, the worship of heaven is eeirly similar to that of a "death cult".

These people are extremists and are the worst kind of scum, but you're playing straight into their hands, no wonder Muslims feel so distant in the west when all we do is constantly remind them of the nutters that claim they're acting on their behalf (even though they're not) and how that clouds societies view of them.

I second that. There is not ONE Islam, I know this is hard to understand.

 

[useless]

It's almost as if IS is incredibly hypocritcal and makes a mockery of the religion they claim to hold so dearly.

 

[AdrienIer]

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask? Lying to everyone, as they have been doing for 15 years now, instead of being man enough to take some responsibility for belonging to the same death cult that leads to ISIS and global terror, is nothing but pure cowardice. And it will only increase the divide between them and non-Muslims, since by now the news has spread into the last corners of Europe that Islamists offer a very plausible version of the faith. Continuing to deny that, in 2015, after years and years of barbaric violence and terror committed in the name of Islam, will only further sow distrust and contempt.

WTH are you talking about
Do you similarly call Catholicism a "rape cult that leads to child molesting" because of what some priests did ? Or let's go back in time, should all Christians be accountable for "kill them all, god will recognize his own" ? Of course not, and neither should all Muslims be accountable for what a terrorist state half a world away does.

Today, as with every such attack, I have heard many Imams reacting very well, such as the Imam of Strasbourg who said he was fully behind the president and the government and that he was horrified at the attack on his fellow citizens.
The Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque (one of the most influential in the world) has also condemned the attack. What more do you ask of them ?
On the other side, some completely unacceptable statements were made by politicians (non-Muslim mind you) that are trying to gain some political advantage from the massacre.

 

[REDY]

Will it help Hollande politically?

 

[Funky]

Yeah.
Asking muslims to say 'Our religion is inherently violent and terrorism is perfectly in line with our values' is indeed too much to ask.

No. It absolutely isn't. If I follow an ideology which consistently leads to terror and atrocities, I should expect that people demand more of me than just saying that in realty this ideology is peaceful and those who committed the violence just got it all wrong. I am sorry, this won't do. Not after a decade full of terror and death on a daily basis in the name of this ideology

It is the moderate Muslims who have to solve the problems with their religion. The Islamists won't do it, and non-Muslims can't do it. The moderates are all we have. And yet they again duck away like cowards, claiming that Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. As long as they don't have the balls to even acknowledge the source of the problems, how do we expect them to solve them? As long as they get more agitated over some nuthead burning a Koran than over ISIS, we will not be seeing any progress.

Some people like Maajid Nawaz have noticed this. He is an example of a Muslim who will not shy away from criticially examining his faith and acknowledging reality. But he and his Quilliam organization are but a tiny minority among moderate Muslims, which is simply disgraceful in this day and age.

Moderator Action: Negatively characterising 'moderate Muslims' as 'cowards' is inappropriate for this site. Please avoid such trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Akka]

Yeah.
Asking muslims to say 'Our religion is inherently violent and terrorism is perfectly in line with our values' is indeed too much to ask.

I'd say I'd prefer them to simply say "these guys are a shame on our religion" instead to pretend like they are not in any way related to.

I don't really blame them about wanting to distance themselves from the extremists, but it's a bit like if some President of a country was claiming a criminal from said country was not, in fact, a national, and just someone from somewhere else. I can see why it would annoy people.

 

[AdrienIer]

Totally off-topic but I often read this old legend: in 732, there was no France. There was Austrasia and Neustria taking part in a fight between the Umayyads and Odo duke of Aquitaine, and the conflict ended with Charles invading the Aquitaine. The Umayyads weren't stopped at all and still conquered lands in the south of today's France until 760.
During the 19th century, France built its own history and needed heroes to support its growing nationalism, and promoted Charles Martel, Joan of Arc, Vercingetorix, etc.
Joan of Arc is still revered by the far right wing and Jeanne (Joan) is the name of Mrs LePen's own micro-party inside the National Front party.

YES. This. There was a battle in Poitier, but it didn't drive the Ummayyads away completely. Martel used the Arab threat to take control over Aquitaine, which his grandson Charlemagne later used to create his empire.

 

[useless]

WTH are you talking about
Do you similarly call Catholicism a "rape cult that leads to child molesting" because of what some priests did ? Or let's go back in time, should all Christians be accountable for "kill them all, god will recognize his own" ? Of course not, and neither should all Muslims be accountable for what a terrorist state half a world away does.

Today, as with every such attack, I have heard many Imams reacting very well, such as the Imam of Strasbourg who said he was fully behind the president and the government and that he was horrified at the attack on his fellow citizens.
The Imam of the Al-Azhar mosque (one of the most influential in the world) has also condemned the attack. What more do you ask of them ?
On the other side, some completely unacceptable statements were made by politicians (non-Muslim mind you) that are trying to gain some political advantage from the massacre.

That's the problem you see, many people believe Islam is one monolithic block, when as in reality it has many denominations and differing sects, maybe not as many as christianity but then again no religion does either.

No. It absolutely isn't. If I follow an ideology which consistently leads to terror and atrocities, I should expect that people demand more of me than just saying that in realty this ideology is peaceful and those who committed the violence just got it all wrong. I am sorry, this won't do. Not after a decade full of terror and death on a daily basis in the name of this ideology

It is the moderate Muslims who have to solve the problems with their religion. The Islamists won't do it, and non-Muslims can't do it. The moderates are all we have. And yet they again duck away like cowards, claiming that Islamism has nothing to do with Islam. As long as they don't have the balls to even acknowledge the source of the problems, how do we expect them to solve them? As long as they get more agitated over some nuthead burning a Koran than over ISIS, we will not be seeing any progress.

Some people like Maajid Nawaz have noticed this. He is an example of a Muslim who will not shy away from criticially examining his faith and acknowledging reality. But he and his Quilliam organization are but a tiny minority among moderate Muslims, which is simply disgraceful in this day and age.

What do you want moderate muslims to do? How can they fight against such a well funded, established group such as IS which could easily be classified as a state? I think no amount of muslims condemning this or any future acts of violence will never be enough for you, no amount of muslims condemning this will stop a violent terrorist group and thats the sad fact of it all, so go ahead and call them cowards, but i don't see you doing anything proactive either to prevent this.

I'd say I'd prefer them to simply say "these guys are a shame on our religion" instead to pretend like they are not in any way related to.

I don't really blame them about wanting to distance themselves from the extremists, but it's a bit like if some President of a country was claiming a criminal from said country was not, in fact, a national, and just someone from somewhere else. I can see why it would annoy people.

Muslims have done this in the past btw, but like i said IS doesn't represent all muslims.

 

[Tee Kay]

I'd say I'd prefer them to simply say "these guys are a shame on our religion" instead to pretend like they are not in any way related to.

Zentralrat considers these guys to be at war against their religion. Is that good enough.

 

[Funky]

They are doing both?

Did I say they weren't condemning the actions? Of course they do that, they always condemn the acts. Is the bar set so low these days that we should celebrate that Muslim organizations comdemn that hundreds of people were brutally slaughtered? This should go without saying. No, I expect more of them. I expect more than they going on in the very next sentence about how this has nothing to do with Islam. I expect them to be men and ackowledge reality, even if it may be inconvenient.

Hey look, more muslims condemning all forms of violence

Oh, wow! More people who condemn the killings of hundreds of innocent people. What heroes!

I'd say I'd prefer them to simply say "these guys are a shame on our religion" instead to pretend like they are not in any way related to.

This is getting more to the point of it, though it still isn't enough. I demand, and we all should demand that they get their religion sorted out. That they actively fight extremism instead of sitting in an office condemning extremists. Again, they are the only ones who can do this job.

 

[useless]

Good to know whatever muslims do it's not good enough for you, so why bother even asking for them to do anything?

 

[AdrienIer]

Will it help Hollande politically?

Yes and no. Some people here haven't realized that except for the awful economic situation his presidency has not been terrible. In times like this he's actually pretty good. But the presidential election is in 18 months and unless the economy recovers he's done for anyway. Events like this don't give you a public opinion boost for such a long period.

 

[Tee Kay]

Not one day has past since over a hundred people were killed by Islamists, and German Muslim organizations are all over themselves in saying that this has nothing to do with Islam, even warning the German media not to draw a connection to their religion. Pathetic cowards.

And if they didn't say this people would ask why they aren't condemning terrorism.

They should do both, for God's sake. Is that too much to ask?

5char

 

[Angst]

I saw the following line on FB (below a pic from the Paris attacks)

"If anyone was wondering what those refugees were running away from, now you know".

Which while somewhat (for most cases) a hyperbole, is poignant as well (although i can easily see how it can be read as reactionary or way too focused on the plight of the refugees when today there is this other main event anyway).

Of course now the mourning is what must go through.

That's a very evocative thing to say. The quote. I sympathize with it.

 

[Funky]

5char

They should condemn violence AND acknowledge that Islamists are behaving in accordance with Islamic teachings. Is that so hard?