Atomic bombs argument

Yeah, it was a mistake to compare intentional attacks on civilians. Obviously, the Japanese were much more willing to surrender than the United States under those circumstances.

I'm sure we'd be willing to surrender, too, if al-Qaeda fought a four-year war against us and had taken almost all of our territory, and then began attacking our civilians to eliminate military targets. But that's not how 9/11 happened.

And, I'm sorry guys, but I've really got to get to bed. Good night all! :nuke::goodjob:
 
What actual threat was Japan to the U.S. homeland at the time the U.S. targeted hundreds of thousands of civilians?

Would you rather have an hostile enemy who will threaten you when they get stronger again? Bishop basically stated things correctly, that these bomb saved lives by forcing the Japanese Empire to realise just how futile continuing to fight was. It was only when they realised that they could be eliminated without inflicting any damage on the enemy that the wholly and totally surrendered. You can see the result of that now, that Japan and most countries around the region are now on friendly terms, in spite of the massive damage caused by Japan in the war. The end result is that the Pacific is more peaceful than before the war started.

BTW, I love your moral equivalence, it is quite charming.

I have a question for you JR, should America have stopped at causing only 3,000 casualties that the Japanese inflicted upon America in the PH attack?
 
I have also read that the atomic bombs were dropped to scare Stalin.

EDIT: Oh, and also that the surrender of Japan was ultimately conditional, in that the US agreed that the emperor would not be required to abdicate.
 
Actually, that was partially true, if the US didn't end the war quickly, then the SU would have joined the war under the terms of the Potsdam, or was it the Yalta conference, the one that Roosevelt negotiated in, and gained influence within Asia. They were promised Korea and Manchuria for their help I believe?
So not a total lie, the US wanted to avoid Soviet involvement.
 
Given that Japan's navy and air force were completely decimated and it didn't have the industrial capacity to rebuild them, couldn't the US have taken its toys and gone home? It's like, if you're attacked by an angry turtle and you manage to knock it on its back, you needn't then beat it half to death with a stick.
 
Given that Japan's navy and air force were completely decimated and it didn't have the industrial capacity to rebuild them, couldn't the US have taken its toys and gone home? It's like, if you're attacked by an angry turtle and you manage to knock it on its back, you needn't then beat it half to death with a stick.

The turtle was still holding a fair chunk of China, and only the USSR was really in a position to take it from them. At that point there were serious questions about whether the USSR would give it back to China if they did take it, and Europe was already agitating to 'end the red menace while we have a chance' so if that had opened a dispute it may have ended really badly. Not that the cold war was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
Actually, that was partially true, if the US didn't end the war quickly, then the SU would have joined the war under the terms of the Potsdam, or was it the Yalta conference, the one that Roosevelt negotiated in, and gained influence within Asia. They were promised Korea and Manchuria for their help I believe?
So not a total lie, the US wanted to avoid Soviet involvement.

Well, I did quote this sentiment from commie textbooks, however it is expressed vaguely and ambiguously, because, you know, China and Russia are not really sympathetic to Japan anyway.

However, the SU still gets Manchuria and half of Korea without much fighting, so it is the Yalta conference putting in effect. The bombs can facilitate the capitulation of Japan, but hardly changes the territorial map, had Operation Overlord been adopted. The only course of history would change is Chinese Civil War. Chinese communist may win it sooner than later.
 
We HAD demanded Japan surrender unconditionally before we
dropping the bomb, several times.

Here in lies the problem already. When it was clear the Japanese were losing, the US should have offered a peace treaty. It would have been reasonable to demand Japan leave China, though unconditional surrender was perceived as a pretext for depriving the Japanese people of their own soil. It did not materialise though in the meantime, the Soviets made handy use of it.
 
Here in lies the problem already. When it was clear the Japanese were losing, the US should have offered a peace treaty. It would have been reasonable to demand Japan leave China, though unconditional surrender was perceived as a pretext for depriving the Japanese people of their own soil. It did not materialise though in the meantime, the Soviets made handy use of it.

Unconditional surrender was the policy of the day, see Europe. This is not a reasonable objection.

J
 
Here in lies the problem already. When it was clear the Japanese were losing, the US should have offered a peace treaty. It would have been reasonable to demand Japan leave China, though unconditional surrender was perceived as a pretext for depriving the Japanese people of their own soil. It did not materialise though in the meantime, the Soviets made handy use of it.
It was clear the Japanese were losing about half way through 1942, but Japan was certainly not willing to admit it. The nation was not ran by rational people.

It would have been reasonable to demand Japan leave China, though unconditional surrender was perceived as a pretext for depriving the Japanese people of their own soil. It did not materialise though in the meantime, the Soviets made handy use of it.

For Japan, giving up China essentially meant giving up the nation's imperial ambitions altogether which probably would have been somewhat akin to unconditional surrender in the first place. The war was started with the US entirely for the purpose of furthering the Japanese empire, particularly in China. I could be wrong, but I don't think there's any evidence Japan would have accepted such a treaty.
 
But why was it the policy of the day? Dig a bit deeper on that one. The atomic bombings were pretty much unnecessary. Soviets knew that Americans were building a bomb and had spies on the Project. Truman was really a clutz much like Bush, shoved into office and told what to do by other people who had their own interests and views. There was a lot of finagling and delaying of Soviets entering the war in the Pacific for reasons which I'm too lazy to explain.

To Japan Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just two more destroyed cities. (as over 35 had already gone up in firebomb smoke) What they were really scared of were the Soviets, with their then massive, veteran forces who had land designs on their former holdings and a lot more. They knew they could never negotiate with the Soviets and they would come in, take over Hokkaido, kill the emperor and probably puppet the rest. That was their real worst case scenario.
 
Here in lies the problem already. When it was clear the Japanese were losing, the US should have offered a peace treaty. It would have been reasonable to demand Japan leave China, though unconditional surrender was perceived as a pretext for depriving the Japanese people of their own soil. It did not materialise though in the meantime, the Soviets made handy use of it.

We did offer peace. Surrendering unconditionally to allied forces would have resulted in peace.
 
Oddly, offering peace is not the same as demanding surrender.

Well, we dropped the first one and they didn't surrender...

And you dropped the second one and they still didn't surrender. Oddly, it took some negotiation.

Unconditional surrender was the policy of the day, see Europe. This is not a reasonable objection.

J

Actually it is. The 'unconditional surrender' policy made it impossible for any Axis force to negotiate. So they would have to fight on til they couldn't anymore. Which is exactly what happened.
 
Oddly, it is the same. Those are the conditions for peace. They didn't "have to fight on" at all. They could, at any time, have chosen to unconditionally surrender. They chose not to do so. That's completely on them.
 
The important issue is the one of unconditional surrender, and how hard - if at all - the Allies needed to press Japan at that point.

Once you accept that Japan needs to be forced into an unconditional surrender the bombs are a reasonable option, trading (it was thought) speed, certainty, and low US-casualties for what might have been a considerably longer, less-certain and expensive (in all senses) project.

I'd imagine that the subject of the certainty of high Japanese-civilian casualties came up, and was more or less met with a "too bad." On the one hand, civilian casualties might have been worse with other approaches. (Again, assuming the US had to press for a surrender.) On the other, it was pretty much par for the course at the time. Mr. Reasonable went on vacation around 1943.

Plus, unreasonable or not, the USSR was increasingly a concern. Showing them we've got nukes is something of a coup. OTOH, blowing a way a couple of cities to make a diplomatic statement is excessive.

Yes, that does imply the US came up with a very self-serving argument, with every variable needing interpretation interpreted in the may most favorable to the US and least favorable to Japan. I don't think that's anything unique to the US. (Though, in reasonably modern times, we've got a poor track record. One can hope it's simply because we've had more opportunities to screw up.) Wartime governments tend to do any number of drastic, unreasonable things. Even when they're winning! Reason #7892357 war really, really sucks. The important thing is to not get into that mentality at all.

I think the US leaders were also quite risk averse. They didn't want to see what the Japanese might come up with, given some more time, to follow kamikazes. They weren't thinking about the Marianas Turkey Shoot, which was pretty much the answer to that question. They were thinking about Pearl Harbor, not realizing that the debacle at PH was due far more to American over-confidence than Japanese efforts.

I was under the impression, btw, that the worry with regard to "suicide" wasn't mass-suicide, but instead fanatical resistance. The Japanese forces were demonstrably capable of going much further than Western ones. Yet another "imponderable" in the bomb-or-don't-bomb equation that the decision makers chose to weigh heavily in favor of bombing.

House-to-house fighting through the home island cities could have been terrible. For both forces, and for the knock-off problems like refugees. Which is why I don't think it was even really on the table ... because of the US casualties - not the other stuff. There were other alternatives. Potentially worse than a-bombs, but most likely not.


I'd say racism was a factor. It contributed to the lack of understanding on each side of the Pacific, and it seems very likely at least a few people involved in the debate thought something like "Who cares? They're /insert racial epithet here./." OTOH, could very well have been thinking "Who cares? Look at how many of ours they killed." or, simply, "Who cares?"

OTOH, I don't think we need any racism to explain why a superior power would nuke a couple of cities when it didn't have to. Given the circumstances, I think ordinary human cussedness would account for it.
 
Truman knew that he had 'The Bomb' when it was successfully tested on July 16th 1945.

The next day the Potsdam conference was commenced and the terms of surrender known as the 'Potsdam Declaration' were widely publicised on the 26th of July.

There was no mention in the declaration that there was a new weapon being threatened to be used and there was no direct attempt to negotiate a Japanese Surrender between that date and the Hiroshima bombing on August 6th.

Neither was there a direct attempt to negotiate surrender between the Hiroshima bombing and the bombing of Nagasaki on August the 9th, on which day the Soviet Union also declared war on Japan and invaded Manchuria.

On the 9th the Japanese government initially decided to agree to the Potsdam terms, however the final decision dragged out for days as military staff wanted to fight on, there was even an attempted coup.

Hirohito finally broacast the news that he was ordering the Japanese surrended on August the 19th.

----------------------------

1) There was never really an issue of 'unconditional surrender' - the Potsdam Declaration itself contained guarrantees about the future of Japan - that Japanese sovereignty would be maintained and conditions were stated that would end any occupation if met.

2) There was no military necessity to drop either of the bombs. The Japanese military and industrial capacity was suffering so much from mass bombings that it was rapidly approaching the stone age.

3) The Japanese had already been trying to negotiate more favourable terms, so there was no real reason to suppose drastic action to be necessary - the Japanese military could easily be further contained until they agreed to the Potsdam terms.

4) The allies never threatened Japan with the bomb. They just dropped it. Twice.

These days we'd almost certainly consider the bombings a war crime, but that was then. I don't think it was necessary. Perhaps Truman and his staff just didn't understand the sheer increase in the scale of destruction and death that atomic weapons represented - and nobody could have been expected to fully understand the long term impacts of a nuclear weapon on a population.

Lastly. There's good reason to believe that Truman wanted to give Stalin something to think about - and wouldn't you?
 
We did offer peace. Surrendering unconditionally to allied forces would have resulted in peace.

Yet the Japanese did not really knew the implications. The use of the A-bomb may have resulted in the belief that fighting on would be worse, though if the A-bomb was the only way, you can question whether that was justified.

Besides, the Soviets rampaged Manchuria and Korea in 1945, laying the seeds for Communist rule in China and North Korea - even though it was a response to the Allies asking the Soviets to help out. Communist China and the Korean War could have been avoided if the Allies were not so determined to get Japan to unconditionally surrender to the point of dropping the A-Bomb and giving the Soviets a free lunch.
 
On the bombs as 'war crimes'...

Let's not get too sideways over atomic bombs. World War II was the war crime showcase that made the entire concept of war crimes. It was the first time people fought a war and were not only disgusted by their opponents, but also questioned their allies, and even themselves. From WW II people got the idea that maybe, just maybe, even war needed rules, because WW II had it all.

Genocide...no one needs reminding I'm sure.
Civilian casualties...with or without the A-bombs, the evolution of aerial bombing reached a point where ability plus lack of accuracy meant hitting a military target required carpet bombing entire cities.
Savage occupation...the old military maxim 'the war isn't over until you've rolled in the sweat of the enemy's women' finally roused the disgust that it merits.
Mistreatment of prisoners...legend has it that two Japanese officers beheaded more than a hundred prisoners on a bet as to who could do the most in five minutes.

This list is endless, and there were no innocents. There were also no 'war crimes', because going into WW II there were not really any rules. Only when we looked at the horror that we had wrought did humanity decide it needed some.
 
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