Bailing out the people who don't need it?

[Mark1031]

Yeah, but most people don't want to admit that they probably earn what they deserve based on their skillset.

I think that is a fallacy. Now I don’t mean to suggest that you can bring in any bum off the street in to run a company but I know a number of rich people and for most of them it was simply being in the right place at the right time. If the fresh young MBA or computer scientist went to Microsoft in the early 90s to ply their wares they are rich. If they went to netscape they are not. Lots of very average skilled 90s stock option multimillionaires. If you choose to pursue a money career, MBA good school good company, a little luck a little schmoosing, a little back stabbing and you are rich. I live in one of the richest places in the US and have known a number of quite wealthy individuals and this is what I have found to be their stories. One guy also estimated that about 1/3 of his very rich neighbors probably profited from illegal activities. FBI hauled away the guy next door a while back. BTW what was Bernie Maddof’s skill set?

 

[Whomp]

Bernie Madoff's skill was bringing electronic execution to the NASDAQ market. Before that trades were done through a market maker who took inventory and sold it. Fractions turned into decimals which saved investors lots of money.

The money management arm of the business is quite a different story.

 

[mrt144]

I think that is a fallacy. Now I don’t mean to suggest that you can bring in any bum off the street in to run a company but I know a number of rich people and for most of them it was simply being in the right place at the right time. If the fresh young MBA or computer scientist went to Microsoft in the early 90s to ply their wares they are rich. If they went to netscape they are not. Lots of very average skilled 90s stock option multimillionaires. If you choose to pursue a money career, MBA good school good company, a little luck a little schmoosing, a little back stabbing and you are rich. I live in one of the richest places in the US and have known a number of quite wealthy individuals and this is what I have found to be their stories. One guy also estimated that about 1/3 of his very rich neighbors probably profited from illegal activities. FBI hauled away the guy next door a while back. BTW what was Bernie Maddof’s skill set?

Maddof's was relationship building with marks . But seriously, why was Bernie able to get as much as he did?

Now it is likely true that some of super-wealth is right place at the right time, but putting yourself in a position to capture fortunate circumstance accounts for something. And I wasn't thinking on the scale of top 1% vs 99%, rather I was thinking what separates the 50k earner from the 150k earner.

 

[Mark1031]

The money management arm of the business is quite a different story.

To say the least

 

[Gary Childress]

I think that is a fallacy. Now I don’t mean to suggest that you can bring in any bum off the street in to run a company but I know a number of rich people and for most of them it was simply being in the right place at the right time. If the fresh young MBA or computer scientist went to Microsoft in the early 90s to ply their wares they are rich. If they went to netscape they are not. Lots of very average skilled 90s stock option multimillionaires. If you choose to pursue a money career, MBA good school good company, a little luck a little schmoosing, a little back stabbing and you are rich. I live in one of the richest places in the US and have known a number of quite wealthy individuals and this is what I have found to be their stories. One guy also estimated that about 1/3 of his very rich neighbors probably profited from illegal activities. FBI hauled away the guy next door a while back. BTW what was Bernie Maddof’s skill set?

See, this is a well reasoned reply. I think a lot of it is ultimately being in the right place at the right time. People in general are pretty smart. I think many of us would be surprised what a few simple turns of fate could accomplish. I think the tendency is to think, "well I could never be an investment banker because I don't understand the business therefore they must be better than me." I'm sure there are things which investment bankers don't know how to do which would make them, say, poor graphic artists or something. And yes there is the issue of supply and demand but I don't think supply and demand necessarily dictates that we must give charity to the rich.

 

[Neomega]

Oh stop all the hating already it's getting old. Look, he worked his way up there and SO CAN YOU. Why aren't YOU an executive at some major corporation? If you think it's so easy being them, WHY DON'T YOU become one of them? In fact, why doesn't everyone become an executive?

He built a beautiful house of cards with the rest of them. A big illusion. Now the game should be over, (and it will be anyways, soon) and he'll have to get a real job.

 

[Neomega]

The point is that not many people have the skills, commitment, or interest required to be an executive.

You forgot the big one; connections.

 

[mrt144]

See, this is a well reasoned reply. I think a lot of it is ultimately being in the right place at the right time. People in general are pretty smart. I think many of us would be surprised what a few simple turns of fate could accomplish. I think the tendency is to think, "well I could never be an investment banker because I don't understand the business therefore they must be better than me." I'm sure there are things which investment bankers don't know how to do which would make them, say, poor graphic artists or something. And yes there is the issue of supply and demand but I don't think supply and demand necessarily dictates that we must give charity to the rich.

Consider the case of people that win the lottery. Right place at the right time but almost all of them lose it or have their lives go to hell. Because the lottery self selects for people that don't understand odds or just do it on a lark.

There is the case of John Meriwether who, no matter how many times he loses money, always finds someone willing to take it off their hands for him to lose.

 

[mrt144]

You forgot the big one; connections.

Building those is a skill. And if it isn't, just chalk it up to innate talent like Michael Phelps

 

[general_kill]

Wait a minute. Now you're back tracking. You just talked about how stressful your friend's job is and now you're saying most jobs are stressful and demanding which was my point to begin with. So you are agreeing with the point I was making and now you're trying to play it off like it's your own point? You're right! Most jobs are stressfull. I was wrong to say that your friend's job is more stressful.

Huh? Did I say that janitors don't work hard or something? I'm saying wage is determined by supply and demand, not exclusively by how stressful the jobs are. My original response about the stress of being a "rich executive" was in response to your first post where you imply execs are just partying it up while everyone else suffers:

It sounds more like the rich are simply having a party in these troubled times.

 

[Neomega]

Building those is a skill. And if it isn't, just chalk it up to innate talent like Michael Phelps

It is somewhat of a skill, but a lot of it is also simply, well, conenctions.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Then why do they hire clerks? Surely they aren't needed since they contribute nothing to the company.

Nobody said they weren't needed. They are merely replaceable with other high school graduates. And they get paid accordingly.

Are you trying to suggest that everybody in a business make the same wages regardless of what actual tasks they perform?

 

[aelf]

Oh stop all the hating already it's getting old. Look, he worked his way up there and SO CAN YOU. Why aren't YOU an executive at some major corporation? If you think it's so easy being them, WHY DON'T YOU become one of them? In fact, why doesn't everyone become an executive?

Yup. Step to this, haters. Step to this!

I'm always amused by people who think that successful people always "work their way up" in life. Some do. But imagining that all do it through hard work and decency alone can only be done by people who have fantastic imagination and/or live in their parents' basement.

And, oh, no pity for Michael Jackson? He's in some rough times too.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

Um, once again, no they didn't. You are blaming everybody in the company for the mistakes of a few in a completely different business arm of the company.

So what, exactly, do bank executives do? If they're at the top of a bank when the bank becomes insolvent and has to rely on the government to continue to exist, I'd say they did a bad job.

(I do, however, understand the argument that they did an incredible job, since they grew their banks large enough and lobbied Congress enough to remove regulations so that they could get "too big to fail," and were able to position the banks so that they could gamble all they want and stick the taxpayer with the downside.)

Once again, nobody is paying their divisions one red cent of taxpayer money, so you have no right to complain about what they do or how they do it other than to try to claim that "capitalism is evil".

When have I said that "capitalism is evil?" I think you've confused me with another poster.

Well it's rather complex, you can trace the causes back for hundreds of years if you feel like it. I mean if no one discovered a use for oil, then Saudi Arabia wouldn't have so much cash to throw our way. And if imperialism never ended in China or if Nixon never opened our borders to China, then they wouldn't have the trade surplus they do today.

But here's the deal:
For whatever reason, certain countries saw tremendous trade surpluses and economic growth in this decade. Since they have so much money, they needed a place to hold it so they can earn interest and figure out how to spend it all. This led to the massive influx of capital in our investing and financing sectors.

Fast forward a few years, you have these super hedge funds making extraordinary profits during the bull market. The hedge fund managers made a killing off of commissions. When they expanded their portfolios, they needed more people to manage the fund so they started competing for the same people banks hire. Since banks want the best and brightest as much as the hedge funds do, they had to pay out comparable bonuses. However, since people do not save as much during bull markets, they had to find new ways of earning commission to pay those bonuses.

This is a brief overview of what happened, there's a lot more to it than that. But you get the gist of the story.

So they took risks that ended up destroying their firms? I still think that those aren't the people we want running banks. (Obviously some banks are still solvent -- let those executives make whatever they want, since they can apparently do their jobs.) In the end, someone made the decisions that led to the banks failing. If the executives aren't responsible for the solvency of their firms . . . what do they do? What are they responsible for?

Cleo

 

[FriendlyFire]

What I don't understand is why this bailout money was given to companies without any strings attached.

See its no longer called "bonus" which was part of the strings preventing massive payout its now called "retaining comission" Totaly different thing. No one will ever figure it out.

 

[mrt144]

It is somewhat of a skill, but a lot of it is also simply, well, conenctions.

And I'm saying making, building and fostering connections is either a skill you learn to build or just have innate talent for, which is sought after.

 

[Neomega]

And I'm saying making, building and fostering connections is either a skill you learn to build or just have innate talent for, which is sought after.

Well, I suppose we can go around in circles, but if you are born into a wealthy family, it is easier to have connection with other wealthy people (the connection that count) than if you were born in the ghetto.

So networking is a skill, yes, but there is still a large element of just being born lucky.

 

[mrt144]

Well, I suppose we can go around in circles, but if you are born into a wealthy family, it is easier to have connection with other wealthy people (the connection that count) than if you were born in the ghetto.

So networking is a skill, yes, but there is still a large element of just being born lucky.

How many people are born into wealthy families? There are more wealthy people than there are wealthy families to be born from.

 

[general_kill]

You forgot the big one; connections.

Yea you make connections as you climb the ladder. Many people do not have connections from their family.

I know there is this perception that the rich are just watching out for their own, but most riches are made by immigrants and children of immigrants who came here with nothing. And it's fine and dandy for the rich to give their kids a trust fund but few of them are going to let their kids run their companies if they aren't competent. This is corporate America, making a mistake like that and losing a competitive advantage can be disastrous. So most of the top jobs in America are wide open for anyone. As long as you have the passion, skill, dedication, and all that good stuff, you can make it to the top.

 

[aelf]

Yea you make connections as you climb the ladder. Many people do not have connections from their family.

I know there is this perception that the rich are just watching out for their own, but most riches are made by immigrants and children of immigrants who came here with nothing. And it's fine and dandy for the rich to give their kids a trust fund but few of them are going to let their kids run their companies if they aren't competent. This is corporate America, making a mistake like that and losing a competitive advantage can be disastrous. So most of the top jobs in America are wide open for anyone. As long as you have the passion, skill, dedication, and all that good stuff, you can make it to the top.

Oh, well. And they think socialists are dreamers.