Beginnings of the West

When did the West truly begin?

  • With ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt.

    Votes: 4 6.1%
  • With ancient Israel and Judea.

    Votes: 2 3.0%
  • With the ancient Greeks.

    Votes: 26 39.4%
  • With the Romans.

    Votes: 9 13.6%
  • With the collapse of the Roman world.

    Votes: 7 10.6%
  • With the inception of Christianity.

    Votes: 5 7.6%
  • With Charlemagne.

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • With the Holy Roman Empire.

    Votes: 1 1.5%
  • With the Renaissance.

    Votes: 8 12.1%
  • Other.

    Votes: 3 4.5%

  • Total voters
    66
Originally posted by Julien

Japan fits 100% your definition of Westerness. They are ultra-capitalist, have a pluralist political system and they are more materialst and consumption-obsessed than anybody else in the world (especially Japanese women). However, Japanese emphasise everyday the difference between them and Westerners, which means they don't consider themselves as such, though lots of Europeans or Americans would think of Japan as a Western country. Knight-dragon confirmed this about Singapore, He doesn't consider himself a Westerners, though he was raised in English and in a totally Western system (from your definition). And Bolivian or Peruvian don't fit your definition in almost any way, but are generally considered Westerners.

As for Japan, this is what I liked in your first post as a very good question. The emphasized cultural difference has a long tradition especially in Asia. These emphasis is based on ethnic differences and I guess it comes from the colonial period - some argue that the global economic order is just a new form of colonization. Asian societies are different from the traditional western societies in many ways and it is easy to argue that they are not westerners, but I think some of those societies can be considered as westerner (certainly not China).
As for Bolivia and Peru I think they have a capitalist economy (working or not is not a question), and most people are about consumption even if they don't have too much opportunity for it (I basically meant the attitude and not the chances of consume). The political system probably not very democratic but this is why I said that it is a degree and not a dichotomy.
 
I still keep my Chinese name, despite the popular local practise of taking up 'Christian' names. As for the 'Western system', yup, it's a legacy of the colonial times, but now interspaced with (American) modernity.

I wouldn't use the term Christian name. I personally find it offensive because I am everything but not a Christian. What's more my name (Julien or Julian) come from the Roman emperor Julianus, who tried to restore Roman polytheism after Constantin made Christianity the official religion. Ultimately, it comes from the Julius family (Caius Julius Caesar and co.). It's a 100% pre-Christian Latin name and I am very grateful my parents didn't choose a Christian name such as the apostle names.
 
Originally posted by klazlo
Asian societies are different from the traditional western societies in many ways and it is easy to argue that they are not westerners, but I think some of those societies can be considered as westerner (certainly not China).
As for Bolivia and Peru I think they have a capitalist economy (working or not is not a question), and most people are about consumption even if they don't have too much opportunity for it (I basically meant the attitude and not the chances of consume). The political system probably not very democratic but this is why I said that it is a degree and not a dichotomy.

Chinese people are historically among the most consumerist and capitalist people in the world. If it hadn't been for communism, they would be much more capitalist and money-oriented than even Americans. That's why communism cannot fit China (while it could fit other societies, like Indonesia, which are much more group-minded and equalitarian). I am sure China is going to become a real 100% capitalist country in a near future because it's in their blood, given the opportunity (look at Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore, where at least 80% of the people are of Chinese descent). I would d much better if it were divided in smaller semi-independant regions like the ones cited above. I think they have understood that and have already started the machine.

This reflection make me realise exactly what characterise Westerness and why Japanese and Chinese will never be Western, even at a same level of advancement, wealth, education, with a same economical or political system... Humansim and philosophical reasoning and inquiry. That is what has characterised Westerness ever since Ancient Greece and Rome. That is what we call the Renaissance and the Enlightment, what brought democracy, human rights and prompted scientific and philosophical (applied to politics, etc) research and why Europeans have dominated the rest of the world, even though other regions like China, India or Arabia has be more wealthy and had the same opportunity to colonise the world (but never did, because there wasn't the need to educate people to new ideas,etc.). It's a bit difficlt to explain and I am still a bit confused as it has just dawned on me that this was the source of Westerness. I think it is both a cultural and ethnical factor and probably why Westerners are usually associated with Latino-Germanic Caucasians (not so much Russians or Eastern Europeans). That's also why an Asian with the same level of education and wealth will never be a Westerner, because their mentality/culture are different. I think, even poor, a European would stay a Westerner if they are Western in the mind.
 
Originally posted by Julien
I wouldn't use the term Christian name. I personally find it offensive because I am everything but not a Christian. What's more my name (Julien or Julian) come from the Roman emperor Julianus, who tried to restore Roman polytheism after Constantin made Christianity the official religion. Ultimately, it comes from the Julius family (Caius Julius Caesar and co.). It's a 100% pre-Christian Latin name and I am very grateful my parents didn't choose a Christian name such as the apostle names.
Which was why I put in the astrophies (sp?). ;) Locally, they're called 'Christian' names, 'cause usually the Chinese who took them up are Christians. Though nowadays, even non-Christian Chinese got themselves a 'Christian' name... (like my housemate e.g.).
 
Originally posted by Julien
Chinese people are historically among the most consumerist and capitalist people in the world. If it hadn't been for communism, they would be much more capitalist and money-oriented than even Americans. That's why communism cannot fit China (while it could fit other societies, like Indonesia, which are much more group-minded and equalitarian). I am sure China is going to become a real 100% capitalist country in a near future because it's in their blood, given the opportunity (look at Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore, where at least 80% of the people are of Chinese descent). I would d much better if it were divided in smaller semi-independant regions like the ones cited above. I think they have understood that and have already started the machine.
No. I think you're only thinking of the maritime Chinese (those fr Guangdong and Fujian), who also form the vast majority of the Overseas Chinese, plus Taiwan. Some scholars have divided historic China into two regions - continental and maritime. Maritime China has always looked across the seas, and trade with India, Arabia, SE Asia etc but most of mainland China is continental - i.e. watching the steppe nomads warily.

Which was why today, Guangdong and Fujian are leading China's economic development; they have the trade history (and the Overseas Chinese network) and the affinity for it. It's different for the rest of China where it was mostly still a direct peasant-govt economic relationship.

Besides, the Confuciansim moral system which upheld the imperial dynastic system of China is staunchly anti-capitalist. In the Confucian system, merchants are placed last on the social order, below peasants... Making money fr business dealings is frowned upon by Confucianists and by Confucius himself.
 
Julien wrote:

This reflection make me realise exactly what characterise Westerness and why Japanese and Chinese will never be Western, even at a same level of advancement, wealth, education, with a same economical or political system... Humansim and philosophical reasoning and inquiry. That is what has characterised Westerness ever since Ancient Greece and Rome. That is what we call the Renaissance and the Enlightment, what brought democracy, human rights and prompted scientific and philosophical (applied to politics, etc) research and why Europeans have dominated the rest of the world, even though other regions like China, India or Arabia has be more wealthy and had the same opportunity to colonise the world (but never did, because there wasn't the need to educate people to new ideas,etc.). It's a bit difficlt to explain and I am still a bit confused as it has just dawned on me that this was the source of Westerness. I think it is both a cultural and ethnical factor and probably why Westerners are usually associated with Latino-Germanic Caucasians (not so much Russians or Eastern Europeans). That's also why an Asian with the same level of education and wealth will never be a Westerner, because their mentality/culture are different. I think, even poor, a European would stay a Westerner if they are Western in the mind.

An important addendum to your thought here is that these "Western" traits - individual freedom, democracy, human rights, etc. - all have an impact far beyond making life nice for those living in Western societies; they are all a part of the foundation on which Western concepts of economic productivity are based. Individual freedoms, for instance, is a part of the idea that each citizen is an autonomous economic unit that must make decisions for itself about how it's going to generate enough wealth to survive, and to what extent it's willing to sacrifice (i.e., work) in order to prosper. Our legal and constitutional systems are geared towards guaranteeing these rights of individual autonomy not only because, well, we all want to be respected in that way, but because it benefits our societries as a whole that we each have these choices available, that we have these opportunities for taking economic risks ourselves. This is an important part of "Westernness"; that the critical core of our productivity as a society rests with the individual components of society - the citizens themselves.
 
Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
Only 3% VAT (soon to be upped to 5% though) in S'pore. :p

As for income taxes, I paid way less than 10%... Most people don't even need to pay. We have an income bracket system here - different brackets pay different rates.

It's called prudent management of national resources. Singapore practises it too. Malaysia is a waster though.
Well, that are low taxes. Be glad you don't live in the Netherlands. :D
 
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