Benjamin Netanyahu wants War and Mitt Romney

[GoodGame]

Expel him from the country.

More and more I am convinced that Israel simply refuses to have any peace with its neighbors.

I think this is untrue.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The last presidential election was one of the most closely examined elections in the past 50 years. Yet no large scale fraud which could have possibly changed the outcome was detected whatsoever.

Are you talking about Iran?

 

[Crezth]

Iran simply isn't as evil as so many try to falsely portray it. There are far worse countries out there to hate, many of which are friends with the US.

I never said Iran - the country - is evil. Iran's government is evil.

 

[Archbob]

I guarantee you that Iran's populace does not like being governed by an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship. The people's revolution was hijacked by the religious far right and the good people of Iran have suffered ever since.

I think you mistaken much of the muslim world for actually wanting a western-like democracy. They don't. Egypt(I believe it was Egypt) anyways just voted the Muslim brotherhood into power. They want ultra-orthodox Sharia law. I don't see Iran or any other of the ME muslim countries being any different.

 

[Leoreth]

They did so because the Muslim Brotherhood was the only group they actually knew, and had a generally positive opinion of for non religious law related reasons.

 

[Archbob]

They did so because the Muslim Brotherhood was the only group they actually knew, and had a generally positive opinion of for non religious law related reasons.

But they knew what the Muslim Brotherhood represented and that they were a hardcore islamist faction. People are fine with that in the ME. They will vote for them. Your can start a revolution but you can't change their culture.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are you talking about Iran?

That is correct:

Iranian presidential election, 2009

The published evidence supporting an election fraud may only show the possibility of an election fraud. Some of them are based on the unexpectedness of announced results by supporters of Mousavi. So far no credible evidence has been published which would indicate that a major fraud has happened in fact. Most of official objections to the election filed by Mousavi are related to issues before election [116][117] like misuse of government resources by Ahmadinejad in his election campaign. Several analysis has been published rejecting the claims that Ahmadinejad did not win the election.[118][119][120][121] A comprehensive analysis[122] by Eric A. Brill of claimed evidence published by Mousavi and other activists (including those listed below) has concluded that there are no grounds to suspect the occurrence of fraud. For example, Mousavi claimed that over 10 million people had voted without proper identification, but his official complaint mentioned only 31 such voters. Widespread ballot-box stuffing was alleged, but no single stuffed box has ever been identified. Buying and selling of votes was alleged, but Mousavi has identified only four instances, and failed to provide any evidence. Thousands or millions of Mousavi votes were claimed to have been thrown away and replaced by Ahmadinejad votes, but no one has identified any of the perpetrators, nor mentioned exactly where or how this was accomplished. Vote counts from the field, approved in writing by Mousavi's observers, were said to have been altered by the Interior Ministry, but nobody has identified a single ballot box where this occurred even though the data has long been available to compare the counts for all 45,692 ballot boxes.[122]

I never said Iran - the country - is evil. Iran's government is evil.

What country have they invaded and occupied on the basis of lies and deceit? What democratically elected governments have they overthrown? What group of people do they practice apartheid against, as Israel does towards Palestinians?


Link to video.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, they certainly don't think that favoring Sharia law makes them problematic. But I think it's too simple to say they voted for them solely because of the hardcore Islamic stuff, when they also were the only party they actually knew, had contact with from before the revolution, and that helped them in various ways in form of charity.

 

[dutchfire]

Honestly, is the Muslim brotherhood that much more extremist than certain religious political groups in the US?

 

[Crezth]

I think you mistaken much of the muslim world for actually wanting a western-like democracy. They don't. Egypt(I believe it was Egypt) anyways just voted the Muslim brotherhood into power. They want ultra-orthodox Sharia law. I don't see Iran or any other of the ME muslim countries being any different.

I never said that Iran wants a western-like democracy. Quit twisting my words. I simply said that their government is immoral and repressive and that its people overwhelmingly suffer as a consequence of its rule.

This issue was way more salient in the '80s when the newly established regime was finishing the job putting the screws on every revolutionary it piggy-backed to power, but even today it remains the type of government that makes the Shah's (also admittedly monstrous) regime appear warm and fuzzy.

You have to remember that even if a regime is home-grown, it can still be terrible for its people. I shouldn't need to point to examples all throughout history where this is the case. Yes, Iran cast off the yoke of western imperialism, but they replaced it with a yoke of Islamic fundamentalism, and Iranians suffer for it.

What country have they invaded and occupied on the basis of lies and deceit? What democratically elected governments have they overthrown? What group of people do they practice apartheid against, as Israel does towards Palestinians?

Are you kidding me? Why do you always have to equivocate in favor of the lesser of two evils? Why not reject all evils? How principled can you be if the state you reject on the one hand is only marginally worse than the one that forces its women to be second-class citizens as a matter of course? Hell, that's half the population right there!

I suppose you've forgotten about the Iran-Iraq War. Yes, Iran was attacked first, but for 6 of the 8 years in that war they were on the offensive, refused to negotiate, and threw away countless lives for a pointless cause. The regime quickly handwaved this macabre state of affairs away with a psychotic, almost cultlike devotion to martyrhood it tried to install across the entire nation. People gladly threw themselves on the sword and were remembered for it pervertedly with a street in their name - countless young men brainwashed and sent to fight and die for little but the aggrandizement of their leaders. Iran may not have perpetrated any type of war crimes outside its own borders, but it sure did an amazing freakin' job of terrorizing its own populace.

I'm not saying we have to choose Israel over Iran. If I recall correctly I never even brought up Israel. Call it politics or diplomacy or whatever, but I see no reason why we should support a regime like Iran's even with those like Israel's out and about. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

[WindFish]

Well they are a dastardly, oppressive theocratic dictatorship.

Yet its more democratic that KSA for example

She said "no good reason" so I gave a good reason. :>

Except its not a good reason, its a very bad reason because it gives the Iranians something to focus their energies on instead of changing their country

 

[Crezth]

Yet its more democratic that KSA for example

OK? How many times do I need to reiterate this is a non-argument?

Except its not a good reason, its a very bad reason because it gives the Iranians something to focus their energies on instead of changing their country

What an appallingly idiotic notion, as if societies have a limited amount of "nation grist" that they can spend on societal development and foreign policy.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are you kidding me? Why do you always have to equivocate in favor of the lesser of two evils?

I hardly call objectively evaluating "evil" on the basis of actual facts and in the context of actual misdeeds "equivocation", much less believing and repeating obvious propaganda and utter nonsense in a deliberate attempt to vilify them. YMMV.

 

[WindFish]

OK? How many times do I need to reiterate this is a non-argument?

Its not a "non-argument", its a cornerstone of Realpolitik. We deal with dodgy governments all the time so why are we isolating one oppressive theocratic dictatorship when we are happy to sell fighter-bombers to another one?

What an appallingly idiotic notion, as if societies have a limited amount of "nation grist" that they can spend on societal development and foreign policy.

Its not an idiotic notion, the sanctions imposed by the UN are holding the government in Tehran together because it gives them a scapegoat for things like the Green movement.

 

[Crezth]

I hardly call objectively evaluating "evil" in the context of actual misdeeds "equivocation", much less believing obvious propaganda and utter nonsense in a deliberate attempt to vilify them. YMMV.

I'm not sure why you think we have to choose. Yes, Israel, Saudi Arabia, et al are worse - in some ways. But I never even brought them up. My attitude towards them is moreorless similar.

I'm not sure what "propaganda" you think I've bought into. It can't be any worse than buying into figures published by the Iranian government conclusively demonstrating "yep we're not corrupt we're perfect we watched and made sure everybody is happy war is peace."

Its not a "non-argument", its a cornerstone of Realpolitik. We deal with dodgy governments all the time so why are we isolating one oppressive theocratic dictatorship when we are happy to sell fighter-bombers to another one?

I'm not interested in Realpolitik. Call me an idealist but I'm also not a fan of massacring innocents in Central and South America to prop up dictatorships out of fear for *gasp* more USSR-aligned countries!

Its not an idiotic notion, the sanctions imposed by the UN are holding the government in Tehran together because it gives them a scapegoat for things like the Green movement.

Dictatorships find scapegoats. We don't need to provide them one.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Israel worse than Iran? What? Israel is generally a western style democracy, not perfect of course, but a secular democracy, while Iran is a theocracy. How do you possibly compare the two?

(Israel supporter, but hardly the "Israel can do no wrong" type.)

 

[JollyRoger]

Given the Old Testament, what's wrong with a theocracy?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm not sure what "propaganda" you think I've bought into. It can't be any worse than buying into figures published by the Iranian government conclusively demonstrating "yep we're not corrupt we're perfect we watched and made sure everybody is happy war is peace."

You mean besides calling their quite popular democratically elected government "evil", and a "dastardly, oppressive theocratic dictatorship", while claiming that you guarantee "that Iran's populace does not like being governed by an Islamic fundamentalist dictatorship. The people's revolution was hijacked by the religious far right and the good people of Iran have suffered ever since"? You mean that sort of propaganda?

 

[WindFish]

I'm not interested in Realpolitik. Call me an idealist but I'm also not a fan of massacring innocents in Central and South America to prop up dictatorships out of fear for *gasp* more USSR-aligned countries!

You might not be interested in Realpolitik but only a moron would dismiss it or say it wasn't important.

Dictatorships find scapegoats. We don't need to provide them one.

Except with the case of Iran, we are providing them with one.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I'm not interested in Realpolitik. Call me an idealist but I'm also not a fan of massacring innocents in Central and South America to prop up dictatorships out of fear for *gasp* more USSR-aligned countries!

Well, there's a difference between just trading, the way you do with any country, actually being alligned with that country, being at war with that country, and imposing trade sanctions.

War should be used only as a last resort. Trade sanctions can be used a little more liberally but we should be careful who we trade sanction, and only do it when we have a clear, defined goal in mind. "Becomming a western democracy" is not a practical goal in most caes. "Don't kill the infidels" may well be.

I don't really trust Iran with a nuclear weapon. I'd probably use trade sanctions if they tried. I wouldn't propose war though. I would tell Israel that if they decide to bomb Iranian facilities, we are staying out of it. We can't afford another war.