BETA TEST: History Rewritten 1.24 (K-Mod Merge)

[lindsay40k]

Realistically, though, how open to abuse would up to five NWs in a city be? Especially with forced decentralising of WW hoarding?

Three is obviously great, but to get all five early enough to make a major difference, you're going to want a Hermitage in there, which will take up one of your slots. So, effectively, this is four NWs. Commerce boosting NWs want to run lots of Cottages, whilst NE wants lots of Specialists, so again the synergy is limited. An ultra commerce capital with an Ironworks is reducing its health cap by two population, and IW wants to be in a hammer heavy area to grab a bunch of the big late wonders or pour out troops. Stacking up military type NWs will mean sacrificing a lot of turns of unit production to get culture production online.

Another option would be to have NWs start unlocking at Developing, where the border expansion outstrips the city's ability to work the tiles.

I'd be up for playtesting the concept, at least.

 

[NBAfan]

Good luck with the merge! I found your mod after coming back to Civ 4 for the first time in years and I like it. I appreciate how it's not a senseless kitchen sink mod.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I finished a very fun game with the mod, you did a wonderful job with the recent releases.
I like the concept of dissent, and it's a good direction to add more dynamic things for reducing it when you are not in a golden age.

So espionage points reducing it is great idea, but I would suggest to increase it's effect a bit more.
Maybe twice the points your cities generate? I felt it's a little underrepresented ATM, in the first 2/3 of the game it doesn't really have any impact.
And after the espionage slider, it becomes a perfectly fitting tradeoff - lowering dissent means less science for bigger civs. Thus it's increasing the strategic choices in the game (if the dissent reduction is significant enough), while also adding some advantages for tall play, which is a good thing in all 4x games.

On the other hand, if the amount of dissent-reduction from espionage points is increased, you can decrease the effect of those -25% dissent buildings. They felt way too much overpowered, and at the same time somewhat arbitary to add that significant effect to those buildings.

Another thing I noticed is connected to the civic which gives you unlimited great doctors.
Adopting that civic resulted in all my cities running a full doctor specialist economy.
And by full I mean, that in some of my cities there wasn't any citizen working on the fields, 100% were employed as doctor specialists.
It ruined both my economy and the immersion to some extent.
Specialists with free food can be dangerous from a modding perspective, I would suggest against using anything which can result in too many citizens of that type.

Cheers, looking forward to the next version with automated corporation spread.
(PS: funny thing, I was working on the exact same thing for RFCE recently already started last summer, hopefully will finally have time to finish it soon, based on the SoI mechanics implemented by embryodead. Do you also plan to use that as a base, or have something different in mind?)

 

[Xyth]

I like the concept of dissent, and it's a good direction to add more dynamic things for reducing it when you are not in a golden age.

I had to make dissent very passive to begin with so that players wouldn't have too much advantage over the AI. I'm introducing some active mitigation where I think I can make it work.

So espionage points reducing it is great idea, but I would suggest to increase it's effect a bit more.
Maybe twice the points your cities generate? I felt it's a little underrepresented ATM, in the first 2/3 of the game it doesn't really have any impact.

It doesn't need to have too much impact in the early game, empires shouldn't be too big yet and civil wars should sometimes be somewhat inevitable but manageable. The late game is where it's really needed and there's more espionage infrastructure available to make it more effective. The challenge is get it ramping up effectively in the mid game. Doubling the effect would be too blunt a tool for this I think, but I intend to do some testing to see.

And after the espionage slider, it becomes a perfectly fitting tradeoff - lowering dissent means less science for bigger civs. Thus it's increasing the strategic choices in the game (if the dissent reduction is significant enough), while also adding some advantages for tall play, which is a good thing in all 4x games.

It also boosts the value of espionage buildings/wonders/specialists/civics/etc, even for players who don't wish to partake in the spy game.

On the other hand, if the amount of dissent-reduction from espionage points is increased, you can decrease the effect of those -25% dissent buildings. They felt way too much overpowered, and at the same time somewhat arbitary to add that significant effect to those buildings.

Once I've got the tuning closer, I might change those buildings to "+50% dissent reduction from espionage" (or similar).

Another thing I noticed is connected to the civic which gives you unlimited great doctors.
Adopting that civic resulted in all my cities running a full doctor specialist economy.
And by full I mean, that in some of my cities there wasn't any citizen working on the fields, 100% were employed as doctor specialists.
It ruined both my economy and the immersion to some extent.
Specialists with free food can be dangerous from a modding perspective, I would suggest against using anything which can result in too many citizens of that type.

I'll be doing some work on the civics once the corporation changes are done, I'll review this issue then.

Cheers, looking forward to the next version with automated corporation spread.
(PS: funny thing, I was working on the exact same thing for RFCE recently already started last summer, hopefully will finally have time to finish it soon, based on the SoI mechanics implemented by embryodead. Do you also plan to use that as a base, or have something different in mind?)

I'm writing my own mechanic from scratch. Is SoI's mechanic done via the DLL or in Python?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I had to make dissent very passive to begin with so that players wouldn't have too much advantage over the AI. I'm introducing some active mitigation where I think I can make it work.

Yeah, understandable. Probably new mechanics are not even needed. I already like the current state of it very much, IMO espionage will be enough if balanced better.
Also this is something the AI can handle to some extent, so it's a natural fit.

It doesn't need to have too much impact in the early game, empires shouldn't be too big yet and civil wars should sometimes be somewhat inevitable but manageable. The late game is where it's really needed and there's more espionage infrastructure available to make it more effective. The challenge is get it ramping up effectively in the mid game. Doubling the effect would be too blunt a tool for this I think, but I intend to do some testing to see.

Didn't mean the double reduction as a suggestion, rather as a general direction.
So I agree with all these thoughts too. My only point with it was that seeing 2-3 points of dissent reduction seems too insignificant even in the early game. It might even result in disheartening some new players from using the powerful espionage tool when battling dissent in the lategame.

It also boosts the value of espionage buildings/wonders/specialists/civics/etc, even for players who don't wish to partake in the spy game.

Yep, I'm one of these players in most games
BtS espionage was half-baked, at most. Dissent makes wonders to the concept.

Once I've got the tuning closer, I might change those buildings to "+50% dissent reduction from espionage" (or similar).

Sounds much better to me.

I'll be doing some work on the civics once the corporation changes are done, I'll review this issue then.

Do you plan some other changes in civics, or just with the ones connected to corporations?

I'm writing my own mechanic from scratch. Is SoI's mechanic done via the DLL or in Python?

Python only, so you can use it too
Worth checking out, a fairly simple but perfectly working system.
At least perfect for RFC mods, you might have something different in mind.

 

[Leoreth]

From a balance perspective, I would be careful with giving espionage a strong secondary utility (which dissent reduction would ultimately become). There are already scenarios where espionage is preferable to research for technological progress, this might completely tilt the balance in favor of it.

So you might want to keep it in mind to increase the cost for tech stealing missions somewhat.

What would also be cool though is if reducing dissent with espionage would siphon off espionage points in proportion to the dissent mitigated. This would represent state agencies being directed to focus inward and at same time address the balance problem.

 

[keldath]

hey man,
dont forget to address this :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14144483&postcount=56

 

[AbsintheRed]

What would also be cool though is if reducing dissent with espionage would siphon off espionage points in proportion to the dissent mitigated. This would represent state agencies being directed to focus inward and at same time address the balance problem.

Sounds good to me too
The percentage could even be adjustable, so the player can have full focus on dissent or on espionage, depending on playstyle
Obviously it's an advantage to the player, but not a too significant one even if the AI is set to a fix percentage for the whole game. It get's the same amount of espionage points after all, just not as flexible as for the player.
Even some basic AI coding can be added: for example 100% espionage points focus in golden ages

EDIT: on second thought, maybe this needs some dll coding?
not sure if the amount of espionage points are hardcoded or not

 

[Leoreth]

It might be possible in Python by adjusting the global espionage modifier.

 

[Xyth]

Do you plan some other changes in civics, or just with the ones connected to corporations?

I intend to go over the civics towards the end of 1.24's development. There's a few that need some work.

Python only, so you can use it too
Worth checking out, a fairly simple but perfectly working system.
At least perfect for RFC mods, you might have something different in mind.

Cool, I'll check it out.

From a balance perspective, I would be careful with giving espionage a strong secondary utility (which dissent reduction would ultimately become). There are already scenarios where espionage is preferable to research for technological progress, this might completely tilt the balance in favor of it.

So you might want to keep it in mind to increase the cost for tech stealing missions somewhat.

What would also be cool though is if reducing dissent with espionage would siphon off espionage points in proportion to the dissent mitigated. This would represent state agencies being directed to focus inward and at same time address the balance problem.

Sounds good to me too
The percentage could even be adjustable, so the player can have full focus on dissent or on espionage, depending on playstyle
Obviously it's an advantage to the player, but not a too significant one even if the AI is set to a fix percentage for the whole game. It get's the same amount of espionage points after all, just not as flexible as for the player.
Even some basic AI coding can be added: for example 100% espionage points focus in golden ages

EDIT: on second thought, maybe this needs some dll coding?
not sure if the amount of espionage points are hardcoded or not

It might be possible in Python by adjusting the global espionage modifier.

I've often thought that espionage points need to be renamed, though to what I don't know. Security? Even in BTS there is an odd disconnect where they're generated by domestic law and order infrastructure, then spent by spies. Feels like it should be the other way around. With the the addition of dissent reduction in HR, this weird duality becomes even more apparent.

I like the idea of a mechanic to shift focus between domestic security and foreign manipulation, but I suspect that reducing dissent will almost always be more valuable option. I'll keep it in mind for the future, but at this stage I think it would just add a layer of complexity and make the spy game even less appealing than it already is.

hey man,
dont forget to address this :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14144483&postcount=56

I've fixed it, just neglected to respond that I had. Good spotting!

 

[Leoreth]

I've often thought that espionage points need to be renamed, though to what I don't know. Security? Even in BTS there is an odd disconnect where they're generated by domestic law and order infrastructure, then spent by spies. Feels like it should be the other way around. With the the addition of dissent reduction in HR, this weird duality becomes even more apparent.

This has always bothered me as well. The whole idea of hiring spy specialists and having spies as great people never sat well with me (mostly because it put them on the same level as artists and scientists and so on). In DoC I have already replaced those specialists with statesmen specialists and a corresponding GP type, and most of the infrastructure to specialist relations make more sense now.

I've thought about taking it even further and replacing espionage points with something more general related to the strength of the civilization to project power both domestically and abroad. Not sure what it would be named though, influence maybe? Administration?

The idea is that you would use this resource for espionage spending, but also diplomacy (as upkeep/cost for trade deals). Domestically, it is harder to find uses for it, but one appropriate aspect is civic upkeep. This is mostly a choice of theme though (besides interaction with specialists and building modifiers) since a hypothetical influence slider would cut into the gold slider and therefore higher civic upkeep still translates into a gold cost.

It's been hard for me to make a nice model out of it conceptually but the concept is appealing. I think what held me off the most are enough interesting domestic uses, but this might be different in HR with this whole combating dissent angle.

 

[lindsay40k]

Rename EP to Intel? Enemy cities with your own Spy unit present generate Intel for you and Discontent for them? Your own Spy specialists able to find enemy spies, eliminating them and yielding Intel, and reduce d2d Discontent and the Discontent penalties for enemy spies?

 

[dretnoth]

Hi. some thougs. sry for hard EN.

Dont know if we talk about it but i remember that some batleships run on coal.
-Its fine to set needs for BatleShip "or Coal" to?

American Abrams (real tank) have thurbine engine that make sound like wacun cleaner. it make some times some people think like its can run on gas.
-How about idea if AdvancedArmor needs "Oil or gas?"

I again have problem when work tiles of city (Range: 1, 2) has ben stolen by distand foregin city by generating large amout culture or have alredy insane or legendary culture level. That foregin city can be distant by 5 tiles but its stealing tiles that canot work on it.
Its make me woried when i see this on alied cityes sucefuly make it usseles.
-Can be done that if the work tiles of city canot ben owertaken by culture if they dont in work range (2) of foregin city?
+Or at last make thiese tiles cost for overtaken tree or five times more?

-How about unasigned citizents generate 1 food? or resting workers in cities generate 1 work?

-Why i was Vin on domination victory when i make everione on map mi vasals?

 

[s.bernbaum]

Not addressing the other things, dretnoth, but the reason the game has for the culture influence over distant tiles around other cities is to allow them to acquire resources that they would otherwise not have and to allow cities to change which empire they belong to ("flip") due to culture influence. Many players ignore this aspect but many (like me) use it in nearly every game to add the cities of neighbors, with whom they are not at war, to their empire.

 

[lindsay40k]

Yes, if you're losing work tiles to foreign influence, it's up to you to generate enough culture in your nearby cities to make the people who are living on the tile prefer your blue jeans and compact discs. It's an integral part of Civ IV and a mod that did away with it would be a massive change - one that would remove the main visual indication that a whole city might be at risk of 'culture flipping', and make conquest a lot more powerful than peaceful building.

 

[dretnoth]

I know that all, and ist okay to flip the others empire citizens to correct believing. But i merely allays focus on culture, and the AI cannot handle it properly.
I never seen a vassal state city flip. And mostly i dint want the city to. (Because it mees my precious balanced economy.) By Every new city the maintenance of empire sky rocked up. (Its only me? In late game sever hundred gold per single city. 20+)
But what i trying saying, im not greedy for tiles that i dint need, and that vassal city poring on few tiles when the rest i holding whit overwhelming culture.
I know its only game, but i have my own way how to treat allies.

But i still like the game. Dont think something else.

-Soo... its impossible make diplomacy treaty where we boot garante the cities work tiles protection from overtake by distant cities (Range 3+)?

 

[lindsay40k]

Hmm. A diplo option for 'hand over all disputed territory'? It'd be expensive. And I suspect it'd have to be an ongoing GPT/resource rental, not a tech/gold trade, which would mean there's have to be regular checks on the value of disputed tiles. Be another thing for the AI to demand and then hate you for refusing.

 

[Xyth]

Haven't thought about any specifics yet, but I'm really starting to warm to the idea of espionage becoming 'security'.

Dont know if we talk about it but i remember that some batleships run on coal.
-Its fine to set needs for BatleShip "or Coal" to?

Unsure about this. Early Battleships did run on coal, but Battleships in HR are unlocked after this era (because we added the Cruiser).

American Abrams (real tank) have thurbine engine that make sound like wacun cleaner. it make some times some people think like its can run on gas.
-How about idea if AdvancedArmor needs "Oil or gas?"

Engines like that can use a wide variety of liquid fuels, possibly even LPG (propane/butane) but they can't use natural gas (methane/ethane), even in compressed form (CNG).

I again have problem when work tiles of city (Range: 1, 2) has ben stolen by distand foregin city by generating large amout culture or have alredy insane or legendary culture level. That foregin city can be distant by 5 tiles but its stealing tiles that canot work on it.
Its make me woried when i see this on alied cityes sucefuly make it usseles.
-Can be done that if the work tiles of city canot ben owertaken by culture if they dont in work range (2) of foregin city?
+Or at last make thiese tiles cost for overtaken tree or five times more?

This is intended. Just as in the real world, allies compete against each other for cultural influence.

-How about unasigned citizents generate 1 food? or resting workers in cities generate 1 work?

Too powerful and too difficult to teach to the AI. You can settle Labourers in cities as unassigned citizens though (+1)

-Why i was Vin on domination victory when i make everione on map mi vasals?

Half of your vassals' land and population counts as your own.

-Soo... its impossible make diplomacy treaty where we boot garante the cities work tiles protection from overtake by distant cities (Range 3+)?

Hmm. A diplo option for 'hand over all disputed territory'? It'd be expensive. And I suspect it'd have to be an ongoing GPT/resource rental, not a tech/gold trade, which would mean there's have to be regular checks on the value of disputed tiles. Be another thing for the AI to demand and then hate you for refusing.

Not possible.

 

[dretnoth]

Hi I notice that the Mayan AI dint use Catapults and Skirmishers. The others do but this one nope. He just bring a large number of troops and marsh forward.

 

[Leoreth]

I've been tinkering with (i.e. scavenging) your civilopedia and noticed that the building section had quite the annoying behavior: when you select a new building, the entire list is redrawn and the scroll bar reset, which is annoying when you are selecting a building down the list as it bumps that building to the lower end of the visible part of the list.

I'm not entirely sure but I think the code doesn't quite recognize the category as being the same (which should avoid a redraw) because of the split categories for buildings. However, if you change the handleInput() method in CvPediaMain to

	def handleInput(self, inputClass):
		if inputClass.getPythonFile() == PEDIA_LEADERS:
			return self.pediaLeader.handleInput(inputClass)

		if inputClass.getButtonType() == WidgetTypes.WIDGET_PEDIA_JUMP_TO_HR_BUILDING:
			self.pediaJump(PEDIA_BUILDINGS, inputClass.getData1(), True, [B]False[/B])
		elif inputClass.getButtonType() == WidgetTypes.WIDGET_PEDIA_JUMP_TO_RESOURCE:
			self.pediaJump(PEDIA_RESOURCES, inputClass.getData1(), True, True)

		return 0

It works fine (True to False, in bold). I suppose the bIsLink isn't required in this case. I've tried it from a couple configurations and other ways of linking to buildings (text link, button links) still work without problems.