Bible adventures with Perfs!

[Arakhor]

So, the Bible having multiple authors is a stupid idea and clearly wrong?

 

[Leoreth]

Please don't antagonize him here. It'd be a shame if this thread would suffer the same fate as the evolution one.

 

[civ2]

Funny that it happened just while I was writing a half page long post...

Arakhor
You can believe what YOU want, and I'll do just the same.
All I said, is that these "claims" are based on simply not knowing the topic.

Leoreth
It actually seems that this Perf's thread IS for such type of discussion.
No one is forced to post here, as moderators usually say.

 

[timtofly]

Well, I thought that it was historical fact that G-d gave Moses the first five books orally and Moses wrote them down over the course of 40 days. This was witnessed by thousands of Jews seeing the great Light/Knowldge of G-d revealing Himself to mankind. It was not the start of some great religion. It was the start of man once again in communion with G-d.

Some how man has induced himself to believe that Moses never existed, and the first 5 books were written by multiple people generations later. Since Joshua was and established the use of a scribe to show to future generations that G-d inspires/breathes. The "author" speaks. The scribe writes down the spoken Word, thus the Word is recorded not by one single private interpretation, but through a checks and balance system.

Yes the word G-d was not to be written down on mere parchment incorrectly, but is was revered. When a parchment was no longer in good shape, the "trans" scribing to a new parchment took place. Errors were eradicated through strict guidelines. Now people refute this stating that human error did creep in. However the use of scribes cannot not be used to refute that the process was not in place and only assumptions of corruption can be logical.

It is true that parchments do not last and the oldest ones found do show errors. But they should since the errors were not destroyed. We cannot assume that what was found was what was actually "passed" on. We do know though that there was a process in place, which no one can dispute.

 

[MobBoss]

So, the Bible having multiple authors is a stupid idea and clearly wrong?

Its a collection of books, ala bibliography, hence bible.

So no.

 

[Arakhor]

Hence I was surprised that Civ2 seemed to think that this was a stupid idea.

 

[timtofly]

So, the Bible having multiple authors is a stupid idea and clearly wrong?

Hence I was surprised that Civ2 seemed to think that this was a stupid idea.

Stupid does not always mean wrong. The Jew holds that Moses authored the first 5 Books as do most Christian scholars. Higher Criticism (Biblioligist?) seem to hold that the first 5 books had multiple "authors".

 

[Takhisis]

I'm not gonna pay that much attention to this thread post-by-post, but if anyone wants the Catholic Bible in either Scottish Gaelic or Spanish just ask.

 

[classical_hero]

People have to remember that the account in Genesis 2:4-25 is a more thorough view of day six. We go into the specifics of God creating a man and a woman. We see near the end of the first chapter that God calls his work very good, but only before that he called it good. This is solely about man an what God did. He even created a specific garden where man could work and enjoy the fruits of his labour.

The tree was there just for a test, he had all the other trees to for food and it was just one tree that they they could not eat out of. It is a simple test, but as we all know forbidden fruit is the best fruit.

Now we have one of the hardest verses n the ible to translate into English is verse 17 of Genesis 2. Here is a list of the times it is said in the Bible. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=thou+shalt+surely+die&searchtype=phrase&version1=9&spanbegin=1&spanend=73
Literally in the Hebrew it say death death. Such doublng of the word is a Hebraism and it is extremely complex to fully appreciate this phrase outside of the Hebrew, since it has a duel meaning. Just saying what most translations say, that you shall surely die, gives only half of the meaning, since this half of the meaning is talking about judgement of action, so it is a legal warning of future judgement, just like when you are found guilty of murder and sentenced to death, you don't die straight away. If you read Ezekiel 33 you will see this meaning brought out in full, since that passage is warning people of future death, but it is also giving people life, but telling them that they can surely live, again the Hebrew of the is literally live live. So the first part of the meaning of the phrase and the most common usage in the rest of Scripture is a warning of future judgement according to actions or in some cases lack of actions. The second meaning is of two death, that you die twice now. This why Jesus tells Nicodemus, that "ye must be born again" and hence why many Evangelicals use the term "born again Christian" to describe themselves. So the judgement of two deaths and in the Bible death simply means separation, since physical death is separation of body from the soul and spirit, and spiritual death is separation from, which is why Adam and Eve had to hide from God, since they were noow ashamed of themselves.

 

[uppi]

Well, I thought that it was historical fact that G-d gave Moses the first five books orally and Moses wrote them down over the course of 40 days. This was witnessed by thousands of Jews seeing the great Light/Knowldge of G-d revealing Himself to mankind.

Wait, what? Moses is supposed to have written:

Then Moses, the servant of the Lord, died there in the land of Moab, at the Lord’s command. He was buried in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor, but no one knows his burial place to this day. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died; his sight was unimpaired and his vigour had not abated. The Israelites wept for Moses in the plains of Moab for thirty days; then the period of mourning for Moses was ended.

Joshua son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, because Moses had laid his hands on him; and the Israelites obeyed him, doing as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Never since has there arisen a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face. He was unequalled for all the signs and wonders that the Lord sent him to perform in the land of Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his servants and his entire land, and for all the mighty deeds and all the terrifying displays of power that Moses performed in the sight of all Israel.

???


You can think of literal criticism what you want. But even a literal reading of this text plainly contradicts that Moses wrote all 5 books in their entirety. So anybody claiming this to be historical fact has never read those books closely (or believes them to be untrue...).

 

[Takhisis]

What does Moses' place of burial have to do with whether he wrote the books or not?

 

[Perfection]

What does Moses' place of burial have to do with whether he wrote the books or not?

That passage is in one of the books he is alleged to have wrote.

 

[Takhisis]

Ah. Then no, he couldn't have written that. Unless it was added by someone else, which appears not to be the case. Seriously, what'd be so 'wrong' if the book was written by more than one person?

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Who's read The Age of Reason? I think we're getting into territory that Thomas Paine covered two centuries ago (and quite well, I might add).

 

[timtofly]

Wait, what? Moses is supposed to have written:

???


You can think of literal criticism what you want. But even a literal reading of this text plainly contradicts that Moses wrote all 5 books in their entirety. So anybody claiming this to be historical fact has never read those books closely (or believes them to be untrue...).

Is the fault that Moses knew where he was going to die and be buried? Or that he did not tell any one the details? Had not Moses himself buried someone in "secret" that became a public scandel? Or the fact that the prophecy conveniently left no remains of a Moses, and thus confuse modern man and force him to have trust in an "unknown"?

Seems that God knew and He told Moses and Moses wrote it down. What is the mystery? Is that not what happened? Is it not possible to put the narrative down that way before it even hapened? If we trust that there was a Moses, it follows that God did tell Moses what to write. No one has found Moses bones from the day he was buried to this day, Sept. 17th 2011. To this day keeps changing every new day and will keep doing so until days are no longer used as a measurement of time.

Even Mohammed has not replaced Moses as the "greatest" prophet. Could there be a struggle going on today for that very title? BTW, Jesus was not a "prophet", and did not replace Moses of that position. So no, never since-Moses has there been, and will never be in the future.

 

[uppi]

Is the fault that Moses knew where he was going to die and be buried? Or that he did not tell any one the details? Had not Moses himself buried someone in "secret" that became a public scandel? Or the fact that the prophecy conveniently left no remains of a Moses, and thus confuse modern man and force him to have trust in an "unknown"?

Read the text again. Note that it is in the past tense. If Moses wrote this, this would be untrue at the time of writing. So you say that God told Moses to lie.

Any normal reader of the text text would suggest that someone wrote about the death of Moses a long time after it happened. And this would not detract the slightest from the validity of the account or contradict anything in the text. Yet you insist on this complicated scheme of Moses writing about his own death in the past tense. I don't get it.

Seems that God knew and He told Moses and Moses wrote it down. What is the mystery? Is that not what happened? Is it not possible to put the narrative down that way before it even hapened? If we trust that there was a Moses, it follows that God did tell Moses what to write. No one has found Moses bones from the day he was buried to this day, Sept. 17th 2011. To this day keeps changing every new day and will keep doing so until days are no longer used as a measurement of time.

Can anybody else explain this to me? I can't make any sense of this.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Well, I thought that it was historical fact that G-d gave Moses the first five books orally and Moses wrote them down over the course of 40 days. This was witnessed by thousands of Jews seeing the great Light/Knowldge of G-d revealing Himself to mankind.

I was under the impression that it was the Ten Commandments that were written over the 40 days.

 

[GhostWriter16]

???


You can think of literal criticism what you want. But even a literal reading of this text plainly contradicts that Moses wrote all 5 books in their entirety. So anybody claiming this to be historical fact has never read those books closely (or believes them to be untrue...).

The view I've heard is that someone else (Joshua?) wrote the last chapter or so, but Moses wrote the rest.

Not sure if that's true, but it is what I have heard.

 

[civ2]

Moshe's death

Verse 5: Moshe died there.

Is it possible that Moshe died, yet he wrote "Moshe died there?" Rather, until this point Moshe wrote, beyond this point, Yehoshua wrote. R' Meir said, 'Is it possible that the book of the Torah was incomplete when he said, "Take this book of the Torah?" Rather, the Holy One, Blessed is He, dictated, while Moshe wrote with teardrops.

 

[_random_]

People have to remember that the account in Genesis 2:4-25 is a more thorough view of day six. We go into the specifics of God creating a man and a woman. We see near the end of the first chapter that God calls his work very good, but only before that he called it good. This is solely about man an what God did. He even created a specific garden where man could work and enjoy the fruits of his labour.

The tree was there just for a test, he had all the other trees to for food and it was just one tree that they they could not eat out of. It is a simple test, but as we all know forbidden fruit is the best fruit.

Now we have one of the hardest verses n the ible to translate into English is verse 17 of Genesis 2. Here is a list of the times it is said in the Bible. http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=thou+shalt+surely+die&searchtype=phrase&version1=9&spanbegin=1&spanend=73
Literally in the Hebrew it say death death. Such doublng of the word is a Hebraism and it is extremely complex to fully appreciate this phrase outside of the Hebrew, since it has a duel meaning. Just saying what most translations say, that you shall surely die, gives only half of the meaning, since this half of the meaning is talking about judgement of action, so it is a legal warning of future judgement, just like when you are found guilty of murder and sentenced to death, you don't die straight away. If you read Ezekiel 33 you will see this meaning brought out in full, since that passage is warning people of future death, but it is also giving people life, but telling them that they can surely live, again the Hebrew of the is literally live live. So the first part of the meaning of the phrase and the most common usage in the rest of Scripture is a warning of future judgement according to actions or in some cases lack of actions. The second meaning is of two death, that you die twice now. This why Jesus tells Nicodemus, that "ye must be born again" and hence why many Evangelicals use the term "born again Christian" to describe themselves. So the judgement of two deaths and in the Bible death simply means separation, since physical death is separation of body from the soul and spirit, and spiritual death is separation from, which is why Adam and Eve had to hide from God, since they were noow ashamed of themselves.

Honestly, I think people get get a bit too worked up about things like "dying from death" and being made in the "image and likeness" of God. Hebrew literature is full of redundancies, often to show two aspects of a single concept or emphasize a point. When you eat from this fruit, you're really seriously going to die, guys. Of course, this does raise the question as to how Adam was familiar with the concept of death in the first place.

So Perf, is this still happening?