Bigotry towards white males

[Timsup2nothin]

When words fail, use a meme. Always an entertaining way to run up the white flag.

 

[christos200]

> Asks for stats
> Gets stats
> Cries and changes subject

 

[JollyRoger]

I have yet to get stats in most instances that I have asked for them. You have a bit of catching up to do. Hopefully, you have higher quality than the one link you have provided.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

A link to a dingbat blog is not a stat.

 

[JollyRoger]

We have to give some credit that baby steps are being made.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm keeping count so I can get a data point for my statistical analysis of how many posts are made on average after an "I will not be posting" post.

 

[Synobun]

Moderator Action: It's time for the discussion to move on from this, folks.

 

[cardgame]

Well, that was entertaining.

Might I move the discussion back to some more original points?

* I am almost certain that I have been discriminated against, as a male

I have worked for a temp agency for almost a year, about 6 different jobs, none of them have been clerical. I specifically told the company that I would like a clerical job. I have past office experience. I have impressive WPM figures. I have positive references from my white collar past. I have not gotten office jobs that I know exist. Furthermore, I have been denied information regarding these office jobs, which are posted online, but never mentioned to my face or over the phone. I believe that the company is specifically reserving these jobs for women.

* this is not the work of "sjw ideology" but rather patriarchy. I have pieced this together not through my own ideology but by simply looking at the established social landscape in which I reside. The company isn't new or "hip" enough to do this sort of thing, and neither does the business landscape support such a theory.

 

[Lexicus]

That's the dirty secret, isn't it? So-called examples of "discrimination against men" are not, in fact, discrimination against men, but the result of real men running up against the patriarchal ideal of men.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I apologize if my post gave you that impression

The impression was given that your default position is "I don't believe you unless you produce charts and graphs and a report from a polling company or a herd of sociologists to back up what you say."

That's the impression that I'm getting from several people in this thread.

I don't understand how social media are relevant.
The way you actually show discrimination, be it intentional, or subconsciously, is by running tests or analyzing statistics that are available, not by asking people for their opinion.

Try realizing that you are talking about job discrimination and I'm not. I have been denied a job due to my age (apparently teens are preferred over 20-somethings because by law they can be paid less), but never for being a woman. Mind you, for most of my working life I've either worked for Elections Canada, for the local municipality (census and elections), or for myself.

There have been numerous volunteer jobs as well, and in the theatre (live theatre, not movies) they'll take any creative person for the tech crews who has an appreciation for theatre and is reliable. What sex a person is in the theatre doesn't matter for the tech crews, and you can even fudge it on stage, depending on the role. When we did Peter Pan, Peter was played by a teenage girl and one of the Lost Boys was played by a girl. Actually, I can't think of any well-known production of Peter Pan that used a male actor; the reason I was given is because girls (or women) have a greater ability to sing the notes required, as well as being easier to deal with with regard to the harness for the flying scenes.

Even my mother experienced discrimination on the basis of age, not sex. She worked as a receptionist/bookkeeper in a small hotel, and it came under the management of a family from Pakistan. At some point they fired her for "not being bubbly enough." Her replacement was a woman much younger, with nowhere near my mom's experience. She sued for wrongful termination and won.

As to the details of this situation, I wasn't witness to most of it; however, I'm not going to call my mother a liar. She was not a "bubbly" person, although she was capable of putting on a friendly-professional demeanor suitable for dealing with the public. As for the rest... well, my mom was always bigoted to some extent, whether it was on the basis of language, religion, or race. I don't recall her ever ranting about white men, though (other than those on my dad's side of the family).

I don't know how you'd structure such tests in this specific field, but in a similar field, discrimination against job applicants, such tests are run by sending out job applications with the exact same texts and only the name changed between male/female. That's not perfect, because other factors can still play a role (a specific name having some baggage attached to them for example), but you can be reasonably sure that the differences between the applications that were attributed to men/women are in part due to discrimination.

There have been numerous experiments done in this way, or similar.

Now, if instead of running those tests, you just asked women: "Do you think women are heavily discriminated against when applying to jobs?", and 40% of all women tel you that they've totally been denied just because of their sex, and that it happened often to them, too, then what data would you believe? The tests that have been run, or the assumptions of the women?

I think part of the problem is that as far as I know, I'm the only woman of my generation and background who is regularly active in OT. For purposes such as this thread, I'm a demographic of one, and there aren't any others here saying anything similar to what I'm saying.

My reference to social media should be obvious. You and some others here are basically saying, "Stats or it didn't happen!" and I'm saying that I'm from a generation that doesn't have so many personal aspects of our lives publicly documented. You could probably gather all sorts of statistics from Facebook, Twitter, and other social media sites. About the only part of my life that's on social media is my birthday - which everyone here is privy to anyway.

Very funny. When leftists have no arguments, they dismiss the other person.

Back at'cha.

Actually, I have to wonder about all these "leftists"-this and "leftists"-that... I consider myself a left-wing person, but there are many things commonly attributed to left-wing Canadians that I don't subscribe to at all.

To make my point more explicitly - Is it truly neutral and unbiased to favour the null hypothesis re: sexism in societies in which there has been significant cultural and even legislative discrimination in the lifetimes of living women?

This puts me in mind of an argument taking place right now on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) website: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/senate-opposed-changes-o-canada-1.4053013

In brief, last year a Liberal MP sponsored a private member's bill to change the lyrics of our national anthem to make them gender-neutral, rather than excluding women as being patriotic. The bill passed in the House and now it's being debated in the Senate.

Some senators have decided to be sexist about it and claim that those of us who want change are in favor of "losing our heritage" and other such nonsense. They choose to forget (or maybe it just slipped their minds) that the anthem in its original form was not sexist. They scream TRADITIONNN!!! and HERITAGE!!! and don't even know the history of what they claim they're defending.

As gender-based legislation goes, it's a pretty mild case that's nowhere near legislation dealing with hiring practices, wages, maternity leave, reproductive freedom, or even suffrage - which was a pretty damn important piece of legislation, and in my opinion any Canadian woman who refuses to vote is basically spitting on the very women who fought for our right to vote, to hold political office, and even to be recognized as legal persons.

 

[civver_764]

This type of thread really only deserves a *mysogynist facepalm*. But it's nice to hear from an actual woman for a change on what kind of garbage is being heap on womankind ' cause reasons.

I challenge you to find one misogynistic statement made in this thread. The closest thing to misogyny I can find is all the gag-inducing white knighting for Valka going on.

Regarding your impertinence regarding "evidence" of my past life experiences:

Impertinence, really? For asking simple questions? And you quote "evidence" but I never used that word in my response to you.

One person did not give either understanding or empathy - instead, he scolded me for being "selfish" - for choosing not to have children. Apparently I've "deprived the world of someone who could have been awesome." Well, it's nice that he thinks I could have had an awesome kid, but he completely ignored the numerous reasons I listed as to why I chose not to have kids. That was a case of mansplaining at its most obnoxious.

Couldn't a woman just as easily hold this view? What would you call it then? Don't you see how calling it "mansplaining" is sexist against men? How would you feel if I called your post "womansplaining"?

There was a leadership race in my province for the Progressive Conservative party that concluded recently (the former leader quit in a huff after his party lost the 2015 election). There were two women candidates, and both dropped out after being the targets of some really vicious sexual harassment. The current party in charge here is the New Democratic Party - led by a woman. Rachel Notley has been the target of not only sexual harassment, but physical threats up to and including threats on her life.

There are two other female premiers in Canada, Christy Clark in B.C. and Kathleen Wynne in Ontario. Granted, all three female premiers have promoted unpopular policies, laws, and taxes. But the criticism has that added nastiness to it because they are women - I can't think of any male premier who has been the target of sexual harassment. Death threats? Dunno; if they have been, it's not that well-known, at least not to me.

I briefly looked up these cases you mentioned, but couldn't find any specifics, just general allegations of "sexual harassment". So I'll withhold comment on this.

I will offer an alternate theory: perhaps there is not an added nastiness to it because they are women, perhaps people are extra sensitive to it because they are women.

Cow pies. This is not "asking a basic question." This is someone just assuming that after having birthed a child, the woman would "naturally" quit her job to raise that child, and the woman having a perfectly sane "WTH?" reaction.

How are they assuming if they asked her? Ryika went into depth on this and I think he pretty much covered it, so respond to him if you have further disagreements.

Oh, I see. This thread is a rant against some of what's going on in your life and you're determined to convince us that it's all a vast conspiracy against white men?

Help! White knights! She's discrediting my experience!!

Nice strawman, but if you read my post and the context of it you will see that I was trying to debunk the idea of male privilege, not say that there is a conspiracy against white men.

 

[caketastydelish]

This is getting ridiculous, especially for someone claiming to be a lawyer. "Give me the evidence" "No you give ME evidence" won't get you far in court. He asked you for evidence and that's how you respond. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'd be lying.

 

[Commodore]

It's funny, somehow when asking people for the precise date that the racism/sexism switch was turned off, you never get a straight answer.

I'm not sure of the exact date, but I'm reasonably sure it was a Tuesday.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I challenge you to find one misogynistic statement made in this thread. The closest thing to misogyny I can find is all the gag-inducing white knighting for Valka going on.

Fortunately for you, my browser ate the previous reply I'd intended to post. This time it will be much shorter.

You have a funny interpretation of "misogyny." How is it misogyny if friends and fellow forum members stand up for me? That's what people - at least some people - do here in OT when they see someone either being attacked unjustly or disbelieved or dismissed without reason.

If you find honorable behavior "gag-inducing," that says more about you than it does about me, or the people who spoke up for me.

Impertinence, really? For asking simple questions? And you quote "evidence" but I never used that word in my response to you.

When someone here tells us some details about his/her personal life, my default reaction (unless I know for sure the person isn't being truthful, or have very good reason to be suspicious) is to believe that person. People here have posted details about their families, marriages, pets, children, medical issues, relationship issues, education issues, employment issues, and so much more over the years. Who am I to say, "Okay, that's what you said, now let's see some proof - stats, charts, something that will back up your story because without that it's not valid."

Couldn't a woman just as easily hold this view? What would you call it then? Don't you see how calling it "mansplaining" is sexist against men? How would you feel if I called your post "womansplaining"?

Of course a woman could just as easily hold this view. I had years of it from my own mother, who was determined that I should have a kid (marriage was optional in her view; when she was badgering me about it the last time, I was unmarried and not seeing anyone). "I intend to be a grandmother," she said to me. She didn't shut up about it until I flat-out told her that given my age (40) and medical history, plus my temperament is far more suited to raising cats than humans, I would not be providing her with grandchildren. However, the fact is that in the incident that happened on this forum, it was a male poster of my own generation who decided he knew better than I did about my reproductive choices and absolutely would not even go so far as "let's agree to disagree."

None of my posts to you could reasonably be considered "womansplaining." Have I attempted to tell you how men think and act and have been treated and ignored all your attempts to correct me? Not that I noticed. Other than the times when I get (justifiably) testy when there's yet another "How do I get a girlfriend?" thread posted and the OP or other respondents dismiss my input, the times when I've been admittedly involved in any sort of "splaining" have been with Oda Nobunaga. Put an anglophone Albertan and a francophone Quebcois together in any room - real or virtual - and they will at some point start "Albertasplaining" and "Quebecsplaining" and argue over a battle that happened over 250 years ago and a piece of provincial legislation that happened over 40 years ago. This will go on for several posts until they (we) agree to disagree, wish each other "Happy Canada Day/St-Jean Baptiste Day" and part as friends. Or at least that's how it works here. Offline it's not that friendly sometimes, with some other people.

I briefly looked up these cases you mentioned, but couldn't find any specifics, just general allegations of "sexual harassment". So I'll withhold comment on this.

It must have been a really brief look, since it was prominent on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation website. I guess you didn't bother watching the NSFW video in which Sandra Jansen (one of the candidates) recounted just a few examples of the hate posts and mail she'd been receiving.

I will offer an alternate theory: perhaps there is not an added nastiness to it because they are women, perhaps people are extra sensitive to it because they are women.

So many cow pies flying around on hot air drafts...

Assassination is not something Canadians take for granted in politics. There have been a few instances, but it's not something that has been so... casual before. This is a recent thing, infesting our politics with such reprehensible attitudes. It doesn't matter who the politician is - if you don't like their policies, if you don't like what they stand for, what they believe, what they say... that's what petitions, letters, campaigning, and voting are for. Threatening to shoot them or inflicting other forms of violence is not our way, or at least it hasn't normally been our way.

There was once a time when our own Prime Minister's father could walk around in public, freely, when he was in politics. Ordinary citizens could walk right up to Pierre Trudeau and say hello and if he had time, he would probably engage them in conversation. Nowadays, his son Justin Trudeau is far less likely to do that since he's constantly surrounded by RCMP and other security. There have been death threats posted against him on the CBC site by some commenters who somehow got their posts past the moderators.

You seem to be saying that people are upset because these candidates were women but wouldn't have even blinked if they were men. I very much doubt that any of the male candidates in provincial politics received death threats, or were targeted with sexual harassment. At least if they were, none of them mentioned it happening.

Help! White knights! She's discrediting my experience!!

If you'd bothered to read my previous posts, you would have noticed the incident I recounted about my client - single father who sought custody... or at least visitation... with his child, and one day he sat in my living room while I read his term paper and ranted on for a good 10 minutes about how women get all the breaks, men get none, etc. and so forth... and to remain professional I had to sit there and listen. Of course I wondered if he ever said all this in the hearing of his girlfriend (who was also one of my clients, though they never brought papers to me at the same time and I never discussed their assignments with the other person). I guess he thought I was someone safe he could say this to. Dunno if it helped any when I pointed out that when my parents split up in the early 1970s, my dad got custody.

So yeah, your situation is one that I've heard the basics of before. You feel victimized personally (if I am interpreting this correctly, based on your comment concerning affirmative action) and have apparently decided to make a thread to paint women in general as the ones who are either victimizing you or at least benefiting from society's laws, rules, and customs in ways you consider inappropriate (based on your comment of "working all day so your wife/girlfriend can have a cushy life"). You go on to say:

The fact that your wife/girlfriend can make false accusations of abuse against you, and use that as the basis for keeping your own children from you (I am going through this right now)? The benefit of committing a crime and being punished much more severely than a woman committing the same crime? The benefit of having what you thought was consensual sex while intoxicated and then being convicted of rape because the woman regretted it? The benefit of people taking your problems and feelings much less seriously than those of women?

I make no judgments for or against what you say about wives and girlfriends. If you say you're in this situation, I have no reason to assume you are lying. I'm fully aware that some women do lie about such things... but having experienced some forms of abuse myself, I think I have a fairly reliable BS detector when it comes to someone making false claims.

You'll notice that I never once asked you to verify your story with concrete information. I accept your word that you're in this situation and that you don't like it.

Your point about crime and punishment is something I can't really comment on, since I'm of the view that some crimes in Canada receive far too light a punishment no matter who the guilty person is. I do agree that female criminals who are mothers tend to get lesser sentences since the courts are trying to find a balance between punishing the adult while not unduly depriving the children of contact with her - partly in hopes that she will have added incentive to not be a troublemaker in prison and will complete any mandated programs/psychological counseling, and job training so she'll have a better chance of reuniting with her children some day. Apparently this works in some cases but not in others. I have no expertise to give any concrete examples.

Your comment about intoxication is one with which I have no sympathy at all. "No" means No. Period, end of story. Yes, some women may have regrets and concoct a story. But I very much doubt that most do. Given the hell that women get put through by the police and courts, why would anyone voluntarily go through that?

I have to admit that the racial element of your OP doesn't make much impression on me, since race issues have a somewhat different dynamic here. Canada has race-related baggage, but it's not the same kind as in the U.S.

 

[Agent327]

I challenge you to find one misogynistic statement made in this thread.

Well, the thread title, for starters.

It's always amusing to hear (white) males whining about how sorry they are. (But if you really are that sorry, shouldn't you actually do something about it? Y'know, act like a man? Boys don't cry and all that.)

 

[Evie]

Ahhhhh, accusations of white knighting. The ultimate defense of minds too fragile to understand the idea that not everything is about wanting into other people,s pants.

Seriously, dude, just because you can't think beyond the tip of your naughty bits doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

'Sides which, as people keeping up to date with the transgendered thread (or just reading my profile bit to the left) now know...I have a much more pressing reason for being firmly on the side of women. The only woman's pants I want to get into right now are mine.

 

[caketastydelish]

Well, the thread title, for starters.

No it isn't. If someone made a thread title 'bigotry against black females' you wouldn't be saying this.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

In and of itself, lacking anything else, I wouldn't consider the thread title misogynistic. It's when you start adding in some of the posts that it becomes so.

After all... how many mentions have there been regarding bigotry toward white females? (serious question; I haven't read every post and may have missed some mention of this)

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Actually, everything is exactly about getting into other people's pants, for either sex, or wallet. Those who tell otherwise are either failing in that activity, or try to be manipulative and hide their motives. And those who sincerely think the world is otherwise are being fooled and used more easily.

 

[Lexicus]

I challenge you to find one misogynistic statement made in this thread.

perhaps people are extra sensitive to it because they are women.

Wow, that took a while...