kramerfan86
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i think the key is respectful skepticism and not flat out mocking or such. I definitely dont think any shift towards presumption of guilt should be made ever.
Bill Cosby
- Thread starter NovaKart
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i think the key is respectful skepticism and not flat out mocking or such. I definitely dont think any shift towards presumption of guilt should be made ever.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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In that case, the default assumption should be that the accuser is telling the truth* (otherwise you're presuming that they're guilty of lying), until subsequent investigation reveals that they're not.
At the moment, it seems they are more likely to be thought to be making it all up, or plain exaggerating.
*as they see it, let's say.
At the moment, it seems they are more likely to be thought to be making it all up, or plain exaggerating.
*as they see it, let's say.
The ones who actually have evidence of their claims aren't treated with disbelief. It is the ones who make accusations without providing a single shred of evidence to support their claims that get treated with disbelief, and rightly so. It really is quite simple: provide proof and people will generally at least listen to what you have to say; don't provide proof and people will generally tell you to go pound sand.
Guilt should never be assumed without substantial evidence, and the burden of proof should always lie with the accuser to prove the veracity of their claims. With very few exceptions, we operate (at least theoretically) under a criminal justice system where the accused does not have to prove their innocence.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
The thing is that a rape victim needs to go get a rape kit done as soon as possible after it happens. That's how you get evidence. But a lot of people are too traumatized after such a thing happens to think to do it. Not to mention that we still really look down on people who are raped. If that doesn't change, people are just not going to go out of their way to collect evidence.
You have to remember that most rape happens from family members and friends - not from strangers. Can you imagine someone you trust doing something like that to you? It's traumatic - and the way society looks at rape doesn't help those who are in that situation at all.
Our views on rape and such need to change quite a bit before more victims come out with actual evidence in their hands. But the way things are now, even hollywood movies make fun of rape - and moviegoers don't seem to mind and laugh along. No wonder victims don't want to come out and say what happened.
You have to remember that most rape happens from family members and friends - not from strangers. Can you imagine someone you trust doing something like that to you? It's traumatic - and the way society looks at rape doesn't help those who are in that situation at all.
Our views on rape and such need to change quite a bit before more victims come out with actual evidence in their hands. But the way things are now, even hollywood movies make fun of rape - and moviegoers don't seem to mind and laugh along. No wonder victims don't want to come out and say what happened.
kramerfan86
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You could theoretically run off an assumption the victim was raped but at the same time assume that the accused is not the perpetrator, although that gets a bit impossible when talking about a celebrity.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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I heard recently of a woman who was raped in some guy's car. He obliged her to "clean"* herself up to remove any evidence of the crime. Surreptitiously, though, she pulled out some of her hair and spat on the seat. Subsequent investigation led to the guy's conviction.
*what that means I can really only guess at.
*what that means I can really only guess at.
Agreed on all accounts. With that said, I still do not believe that means the actual criminal justice system should treat rape any differently than any other crime. As with any other crime, you cannot reasonably expect the criminal justice system to listen to the accuser if the accuser cannot at least provide a little bit of evidence of their claims.
Why would you conflate sexual misadventure with rape? Why jump to such nefarious conclusions about Mr. Cosby? Are you a NBC executive?
Well then what other sexual misadventures, aside from the ones currently being discussed, do you refer to then? I was not aware you had such intimate knowledge of the personal sexual dealings of Bill Cosby.
It has long been open knowledge that Bill Cosby was a serial breaker of his wedding vows. That qualifies as sexual misadventure in my book and could be a distraction (and lack of leverage) in contract negotiations.
That it would, counselor, that it would.
A bit of an update on this based on some things that have come out recently:
I had heard about allegations against him some time ago but didn't really remember anything specific. Now, there's a total of 16 women accusing him of something. Most of these are accusations that he had drugged them and then raped them but 2 are more minor. One woman says he forcibly kissed her and another that he put her hand on his crotch. These allegations go back to 1969 with some in the 80s, like with Janice Dickinson and I think one or two are within the past decade.
It's a bit confusing when talking about so many allegations and every day there's a new story about it. I think so far, there's been one person who has actually taken him to court and they reached a settlement and that person called 13 witnesses to testify. These witnesses were anonymous to the public but now many of them have come forward and identified themselves.
It seems like for the most part, these women don't have any financial motive and the statute of limitations has long expired. Janice Dickinson said that when she was going to talk about Bill Cosby raping her in her memoir that the publishing company said it was impossible because they were afraid of legal action from Bill Cosby. Instead, she included an incident with Bill Cosby that showed him trying to pressure her into sex and being really creepy but stopped short of saying he raped her.
If I remember correctly, and it is hard to keep all the different people straight, there were at least a couple of women who continued to see Cosby after allegedly being raped and continued to receive money from him so it does complicate their allegations. It seems like he had a habit of making mentor relationships with young women and I suppose if the allegations are true that there are some women who even after something like this had happened to them would continue to accept money and the hope of a promising career even if the man had raped her.
So far, one of these women was underage at the time. She met Cosby when she was 15 and continued a mentor relationship with him until she was 19 and he was paying for her college. She says she believes Cosby raped her which surprised me at first but after reading the whole article she said she wasn't sure but she remembers drinking alcohol and blacking out. I suppose that she was young and very naive and just didn't know what was happening.
Anyway, that's if all these allegations are true. I lean towards believing them and normally I'm pretty skeptical of these things. Unlike with Woody Allen, there are many women accusing him and not just a bitter ex and her daughter. I think they don't really have anything to gain from it. However, we haven't heard Bill Cosby's side of it because he and his legal team have pretty much kept silent.
It does seem pretty strange that it's taken the newsmedia so long to make a big story out of this. I remember hearing about it before but it was never amounted to a big firestorm like it has now. I think it was reported on back in 2006 when the first alleged victim got a settlement but people have pointed out that social media and viral videos were not so prevalent back then even though the internet was very widely in use. Now, there's very little Bill Cosby can do to prevent people reporting on this.
I had heard about allegations against him some time ago but didn't really remember anything specific. Now, there's a total of 16 women accusing him of something. Most of these are accusations that he had drugged them and then raped them but 2 are more minor. One woman says he forcibly kissed her and another that he put her hand on his crotch. These allegations go back to 1969 with some in the 80s, like with Janice Dickinson and I think one or two are within the past decade.
It's a bit confusing when talking about so many allegations and every day there's a new story about it. I think so far, there's been one person who has actually taken him to court and they reached a settlement and that person called 13 witnesses to testify. These witnesses were anonymous to the public but now many of them have come forward and identified themselves.
It seems like for the most part, these women don't have any financial motive and the statute of limitations has long expired. Janice Dickinson said that when she was going to talk about Bill Cosby raping her in her memoir that the publishing company said it was impossible because they were afraid of legal action from Bill Cosby. Instead, she included an incident with Bill Cosby that showed him trying to pressure her into sex and being really creepy but stopped short of saying he raped her.
If I remember correctly, and it is hard to keep all the different people straight, there were at least a couple of women who continued to see Cosby after allegedly being raped and continued to receive money from him so it does complicate their allegations. It seems like he had a habit of making mentor relationships with young women and I suppose if the allegations are true that there are some women who even after something like this had happened to them would continue to accept money and the hope of a promising career even if the man had raped her.
So far, one of these women was underage at the time. She met Cosby when she was 15 and continued a mentor relationship with him until she was 19 and he was paying for her college. She says she believes Cosby raped her which surprised me at first but after reading the whole article she said she wasn't sure but she remembers drinking alcohol and blacking out. I suppose that she was young and very naive and just didn't know what was happening.
Anyway, that's if all these allegations are true. I lean towards believing them and normally I'm pretty skeptical of these things. Unlike with Woody Allen, there are many women accusing him and not just a bitter ex and her daughter. I think they don't really have anything to gain from it. However, we haven't heard Bill Cosby's side of it because he and his legal team have pretty much kept silent.
It does seem pretty strange that it's taken the newsmedia so long to make a big story out of this. I remember hearing about it before but it was never amounted to a big firestorm like it has now. I think it was reported on back in 2006 when the first alleged victim got a settlement but people have pointed out that social media and viral videos were not so prevalent back then even though the internet was very widely in use. Now, there's very little Bill Cosby can do to prevent people reporting on this.
James Stuart
King
My two cents on this issue: In theory, I cannot condemn Cosby as guilty because he has never been proven to be in a court of law, and as a celebrity he is a very easy target for false accusations, especially given his well-known history of philandering. Intellectually, I have to withhold judgement.
In practice... My gut tells me he's guilty. I have always found him creepy, and even though I had never heard the accusations until a few weeks ago, I instantly believed them. That might be my own prejudices flaring up, but every time my gut has done this, I've been right. I was right about Gordon Wood being innocent, about Letterman banging his assistant, Bill Clinton, and every other high-profile case of sexual or criminal impropriety I'm thinking of.
My mind says not to judge Cosby yet. My gut says the bastard should be shot.
In practice... My gut tells me he's guilty. I have always found him creepy, and even though I had never heard the accusations until a few weeks ago, I instantly believed them. That might be my own prejudices flaring up, but every time my gut has done this, I've been right. I was right about Gordon Wood being innocent, about Letterman banging his assistant, Bill Clinton, and every other high-profile case of sexual or criminal impropriety I'm thinking of.
My mind says not to judge Cosby yet. My gut says the bastard should be shot.
I'm doing Jello Pudding Shots of the backside of a hooker in his honor.
James Stuart
King
Snort some cocaine while you're down there. If it's a tranny hooker, you've effectively sent a shout-out to Bill Cosby, Tim Allen, and Eddie Murphy.
Zack
99% hot gas
Just in case you're wondering why this is such big news now, Hannibal Buress' stand-up bit is what's bringing this stuff from years ago to the front page.
The forum remains family-friendly as ever.
And JR remains choleric in temperament as ever
caketastydelish
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I think it is quite probable that he really did rape those women, because it is unlikely that such a significant number of women would just coicedentally falsely accuse him specifically. If there's no truth to these stories, I don't see why they would choose Bill Cosby of all people to falsley accuse. He's not most people's idea of "rapist" in terms of what we've heard of him (until now, perhaps although even now a lot of people are defending him).
That said, I'm short of actual 100% certainty due to lack of physical evidence. To make an analogy, if believing Cosby raped all or even some of these women is believing in God, I'm a 2 on the Richard Dawkins scale.
That said, I'm short of actual 100% certainty due to lack of physical evidence. To make an analogy, if believing Cosby raped all or even some of these women is believing in God, I'm a 2 on the Richard Dawkins scale.
If this had happened here, Cosby would be going on trial. We don't have a statute of limitations on rape.
Earlier this year one of my junior high school teachers was convicted of the rape of one of my classmates - 40 years ago. It was an ongoing situation that lasted 3 years, and yeah, it took a few decades for the victim to come forward. But she finally did, and he was actually sentenced to jail time. I don't know if he got it appealed down, though.
Earlier this year one of my junior high school teachers was convicted of the rape of one of my classmates - 40 years ago. It was an ongoing situation that lasted 3 years, and yeah, it took a few decades for the victim to come forward. But she finally did, and he was actually sentenced to jail time. I don't know if he got it appealed down, though.
James Stuart
King
How the hell do you find someone guilty of a crime like that after 40 years? Surely there wouldn't be any physical evidence left?
