Black man silenced by watermelon - culturally contingent meaning

[Kyriakos]

I first heard about it on the Internet, but after living in Texas and Louisiana I can tell the stereotype does exist. It's not uncommon to hear casually racist remarks about how black people are obsessed with fried chicken and watermelon. The funny thing is, most of the guys making these remarks are obsessed with fried chicken themselves. It's not a black thing, it's a Southern US thing. But for some reason only blacks are associated with it.

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More on topic: no, the rest of the world should not be dragged to the insane world of American racial politics, stereotypes and taboos.

I was also eating KFC VERY often while in London. It was pretty tasty, and relatively cheap

I'd likely eat it here too, but there never was (afaik) a KFC in this city (and maybe only one in Athens). We have some more random stuff, like the one Domino's pizza, which i never ate.

 

[Yeekim]

Well, who doesn't like fried chicken and watermelons? Both things are delicious.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Frankly, writers outside of America should be more attentive to American symbols of insensitivity than they need be to insensitive symbols in other countries.

Because...?

Oh, right. Because it's worse to offend an American audience than it is to offend a different country's audience, even if the offender has no idea that offense is being caused.

However, I have to ask how likely it is for an American offender to apologize than for a non-American offender to apologize, once they're made aware of what they did and why it's offensive.

However, the fact is that America won a cultural victory. Across the world, people emulate and aspire to American cultural touchstones far more than they do to the touchstones of other nations.

Oh? What touchstones would those be?

The wide familiarity of American symbols means that cultural producers in other nations have to account for how their products would be perceived by an American sensibility.

I can assure you that the original and custom needlework projects I've done were undertaken while not caring one whit how they would be perceived by an "American sensibility."

As I said, the above paragraph is callous. I apologize for that. There's likely a kinder, gentler means to say that, but I fear I do not, at present, have the energy or patience to convey it in a nicer way. CFC deserves that better way, but I just can't deliver it right now in the my current state. Sorry.

You're using an amazing amount of energy to say you don't have the energy.

Hm, i knew of Star Trek far before i knew of all those tropes-things in the US. And i don't even like Star Trek (or the tropes). Generally you shouldn't be of the view that US culture (?) is dominating something, to the degree it exists in the first place. While high culture can be argued to be transcending borders (and it doesn't matter as much where you are if you have it), pop culture is usually seen as a trashy undercurrent. And surely when i think of US culture i don't think of tropes; i think of stuff i like such as some writers, or some! movies, etc. That is what really makes sense to circulate and what foreign people will pick up..

But... there are Greek references in Star Trek ("Who Mourns for Adonais?" and "Plato's Stepchildren")! And one of the fan film production companies did a sequel to "Who Mourns for Adonais?" ("Pilgrim of Eternity" produced by Star Trek Continues; it's not bad for a first fan film).

As you say, it is not an all or nothing prospect. Instead, American culture is so widespread that one can assume an audience is more familiar with American culture than any other culture from a third party nation.

And there's so much assumption of this that flame wars break out on forums when an American assumes that posting a gif of some American sitcom is going to be instantly meaningful to a Canadian (something that happens regularly on another forum I belong to). They're flabbergasted when I tell them that Seinfeld references are meaningless to me because I've never seen the show - not one single episode. And then they get upset because I've never seen it and have not the slightest interest in changing that.

Pretty sure there are plently of greek stuff used as easily, i mean most people would pick up what is meant if you drew a figure of Hades, Aprhodite, Socrates or whatever, while mickey mouse is rather mundane

I always found Mickey Mouse a bit creepy. But then other than a stuffed mouse I had many years ago, I'm not really that fond of mice at all; they're destructive, unsanitary vermin.

Are there standardized images of Hades and Aphrodite? I have to wonder how many here see the name "Aphrodite" without thinking of the character in Xena: Warrior Princess...

I wouldn't have heard of the watermellon trope (which is rather dumb both as an insult and an issue; many white people equally like watermellon i am sure; there is even a famous Picasso painting of that) if not for such web forums.

I never heard of the watermelon and fried chicken thing until a few years ago when somebody on one of my forums went on a rant about it. At times it's gotten to the point where I'm wondering if I'm not supposed to like either of them because they're considered socially unacceptable, and if people might be offended by the watermelon-themed lolcat picture I did some years ago.

 

[BvBPL]

Because...?

Oh, right. Because it's worse to offend an American audience than it is to offend a different country's audience, even if the offender has no idea that offense is being caused.

Not quite. Rather because American culture is the most universally recognizable culture something that would offend an American culture audience is more likely to offend people in other nations because of their existing familiarity with American culture.

However, I have to ask how likely it is for an American offender to apologize than for a non-American offender to apologize, once they're made aware of what they did and why it's offensive.

My guess would be an American cultural producer would be more likely than average to apologize. But that's just a guess.

 

[NovaKart]

And there's so much assumption of this that flame wars break out on forums when an American assumes that posting a gif of some American sitcom is going to be instantly meaningful to a Canadian (something that happens regularly on another forum I belong to). They're flabbergasted when I tell them that Seinfeld references are meaningless to me because I've never seen the show - not one single episode. And then they get upset because I've never seen it and have not the slightest interest in changing that.

Is this really a Canadian American divide? I would guess there are a lot of Canadians that like Seinfeld and there are a lot of Americans that don't.

 

[Kyriakos]

Not quite. Rather because American culture is the most universally recognizable culture something that would offend an American culture audience is more likely to offend people in other nations because of their existing familiarity with American culture.



My guess would be an American cultural producer would be more likely than average to apologize. But that's just a guess.

Tropes and taboos are not universal at all, unless they have next to nothing to do with a particular country (ie they have to do with common human nature and not a country). Eg an image of a snake usually is not meant as something positive, cause snakes are prone to attack you if they feel threatened, and some are lethal. (juxtapose that with the very local-american don't tread on me symbol) But a watermelon or fried chicken don't have any racist meaning transcending borders, and it is pretty insane to expect foreigners to adopt those, let alone adopt them as culture!

 

[warpus]

What the hell is Seinfeld?

Just kidding

But yeah, some American concepts of racism and inappropriateness just don't exist elsewhere, even here in Canada. I mean, we're aware of a lot of them due the close proximity and due to Hollywood just basically being a bunch of Canadian expats.. But I mean, I didn't even honestly know about the whole "It's racist to suggest that black people eat watermelon" thing until a couple years ago. I hate watermelon, but until somebody sat me down and told me, I had no idea.

American culture can be weird, you can't expect everyone around the planet to be 100% familiar with it and to 100% embrace its odd nuances.

 

[Daw]

What the hell is Seinfeld?

Just kidding

What the hell is Seinfeld?

No kidding at all

 

[NovaKart]

What the hell is Seinfeld?

No kidding at all

It's a sitcom from the 1990s.

I've heard there are Russian copies of Married with Children, 3rd Rock from the Sun and the Big Bang Theory but Seinfeld is probably more specific to American culture.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Do you think that those lowly tropes make an (obvious/notable for a non american audience) appearance in many of the top-selling US movies? Cause you'd be wrong to think so. A movie filled or centered with very US-centric premise/material is going to not do as well with an international audience. Already told you that i would not have known of the watermelon strange association if not for web forums. And most foreigners aren't in the same type of OT forums or even english-speaking ones.

PS: just cause something got to be taboo in one country, doesn't mean many will care in other countries. For a more extreme example, notice east asia and Hitler or blackface.

I'm apparently having a hard time getting this clear. It doesn't take "a movie filled with" anything. And I'm not suggesting that every Greek knows every tiny detail of the American landscape.

I've also been pretty clear that this familiarity does not mean that "America is superior" so you can stop beating the defensive drum.

At the end of the day, if I got dropped into the middle of Greece not only would the language be a problem for me. The entire background would be alien. When I was in Japan I was fascinated and perplexed by an endless stream of tiny things.

If a Greek gets dropped into America there's a fair chance they will recognize the street they land on.

 

[warpus]

I'm apparently having a hard time getting this clear. It doesn't take "a movie filled with" anything. And I'm not suggesting that every Greek knows every tiny detail of the American landscape.

I've also been pretty clear that this familiarity does not mean that "America is superior" so you can stop beating the defensive drum.

At the end of the day, if I got dropped into the middle of Greece not only would the language be a problem for me. The entire background would be alien. When I was in Japan I was fascinated and perplexed by an endless stream of tiny things.

If a Greek gets dropped into America there's a fair chance they will recognize the street they land on.

That's a huge assumption. Tourists from elsewhere, when dropped into a random part of America, will be as lost as a random American tourist in a random European city.

Most people from outside of the U.S. are only familiar with the landmarks - Times square, Niagara falls, Golden gay bridge, etc. Your everyday American nuances will be lost on them at first.

 

[NovaKart]

Is San Francisco so gay now we're calling it the Golden Gay Bridge ?

 

[Daw]

It's a sitcom from the 1990s.

I've heard there are Russian copies of Married with Children, 3rd Rock from the Sun and the Big Bang Theory but Seinfeld is probably more specific to American culture.

I'm almost sure there is a Russian copy of Seinfeld as well, and I can find it in less then a minute by searching. But it isn't the point. The point is that despite it has been translated and is available, it is not any bit of culture here.

Of all you listed I've seen some episodes of the Big Bang Theory (and in English in fact, because I don't like the way they have translated it). I liked it. I sure saw Friends and some other stuff.

None of that made me more American than I actually am, and that is "not very" at best.

Edit: crosspost with warpus saying basically the same thing.

 

[warpus]

Is San Francisco so gay now we're calling it the Golden Gay Bridge ?

It seemed pretty gay when I was there, and the bridge is pretty fabulous, so..

But yeah, America is a weird place with a weird culture and weird social norms. To people from other continents at least, it's not anything you'd appreciate if you're American, because you grew up with it. Most countries on the planet are like this, even if to the locals it might seem as if their reality is "the normal sort of reality".

And of course American culture has been spread globally to an extent, but watching Seinfeld on TV is not the same as walking around New York, trying to find your way. I mean, I know about the pyramids, I know quite a bit about them actually.. but I can't imagine what sort of life they have in Egypt - I haven't done much research, since I'm not headed there, so I just have no idea. I can make assumptions, but I bet a lot of them would be incorrect. That's the level of understanding people have of America - they've seen Justin Bieber sing on TV. (and he's not even American)

 

[NovaKart]

I'm almost sure there is a Russian copy of Seinfeld as well, and I can find it in less then a minute by searching. But it isn't the point. The point is that despite it has been translated and is available, it is not any bit of culture here.

Of all you listed I've seen some episodes of the Big Bang Theory (and in English in fact, because I don't like the way they have translated it). I liked it. I sure saw Friends and some other stuff.

None of that made me more American than I actually am, and that is "not very" at best.

Edit: crosspost with warpus saying basically the same thing.

Um, I've never said it does. I don't believe it makes anyone more American to see American tv shows although it can make someone more familiar with the culture.

But what I'm saying about Russian copies is that those shows have been redone entirely with a Russian cast but the episodes were copied. Like I recognized an episode of married with children when I saw it on tv in Georgia even though the actors and language and set were different. Is there a Seinfeld copy like that?

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm apparently having a hard time getting this clear. It doesn't take "a movie filled with" anything. And I'm not suggesting that every Greek knows every tiny detail of the American landscape.

I've also been pretty clear that this familiarity does not mean that "America is superior" so you can stop beating the defensive drum.

At the end of the day, if I got dropped into the middle of Greece not only would the language be a problem for me. The entire background would be alien. When I was in Japan I was fascinated and perplexed by an endless stream of tiny things.

If a Greek gets dropped into America there's a fair chance they will recognize the street they land on.

Lol?

Again, short answer is NO, they won't. You have a very false image of how familiar those kind of things are here or most (all?) other euro countries.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's a huge assumption. Tourists from elsewhere, when dropped into a random part of America, will be as lost as a random American tourist in a random European city.

Most people from outside of the U.S. are only familiar with the landmarks - Times square, Niagara falls, Golden gay bridge, etc. Your everyday American nuances will be lost on them at first.

Lost isn't the issue.

When I was in Japan things that fascinated me included cloth seats on the subway. If I had seen a hundred Japanese movies that wouldn't have surprised me, because surely among those movies there would have been enough scenes on subways for me to expect that.

I wandered into a Japanese cemetery and spent probably twenty minutes figuring out what it was. Surely if I had seen a hundred Japanese movies some character at some point would have passed through one.

I wandered into a food court in a shopping plaza. It was a lot like the food court in my local mall. Large central area of tables with three sides made up of front counters where you order food and take it to a table on a tray. Great! Comfort zone! Except they gave me actual dishes and flatware. At my local mall, you dump the paper and plastic in the trash and pile the tray on top. What the heck do I do with actual dishes? I had to watch for other people to finish and try to monitor where they went and what they did. Had I watched plenty of Japanese television I'd have no doubt seen characters in a sit com having a conversation in such a setting and dealing with their trays appropriately just in the background without even interrupting their conversation.

The existence of pachinko parlors was a revelation. I'm sure that any show set in Japan would have informed me that such things existed.

Those things aren't landmarks, and similar things on that everyday American street that we drop our Greek onto would be somewhat familiar. Because chances are that our random Greek has seen plenty of American movies.

 

[Daw]

those shows have been redone entirely with a Russian cast but the episodes were copied. Like I recognized an episode of married with children when I saw it on tv in Georgia even though the actors and language and set were different. Is there a Seinfeld copy like that?

No idea. Is there a Big Bang Theory copy like that?

I haven't watched Married With Children, and I don't know which of the local sitcoms you're referring to, but given the name of the series, the episodes must plotted around some family relations stuff, which is more or less common throughout European-type cultures, be it anywhere in North America, or anywhere from Lisbon to Vladivostok.

So it could be an adoption, a plagiary, or a coincidence, equally.

 

[Kyriakos]

Lost isn't the issue.

When I was in Japan things that fascinated me included cloth seats on the subway. If I had seen a hundred Japanese movies that wouldn't have surprised me, because surely among those movies there would have been enough scenes on subways for me to expect that.

I wandered into a Japanese cemetery and spent probably twenty minutes figuring out what it was. Surely if I had seen a hundred Japanese movies some character at some point would have passed through one.

I wandered into a food court in a shopping plaza. It was a lot like the food court in my local mall. Large central area of tables with three sides made up of front counters where you order food and take it to a table on a tray. Great! Comfort zone! Except they gave me actual dishes and flatware. At my local mall, you dump the paper and plastic in the trash and pile the tray on top. What the heck do I do with actual dishes? I had to watch for other people to finish and try to monitor where they went and what they did. Had I watched plenty of Japanese television I'd have no doubt seen characters in a sit com having a conversation in such a setting and dealing with their trays appropriately just in the background without even interrupting their conversation.

The existence of pachinko parlors was a revelation. I'm sure that any show set in Japan would have informed me that such things existed.

Those things aren't landmarks, and similar things on that everyday American street that we drop our Greek onto would be somewhat familiar. Because chances are that our random Greek has seen plenty of American movies.

A far more logical explanation would be because some western stuff were here already. I mean, look at architecture. England wasn't ever controlled by an ancient greek state, but their monumental architecture is quite familiar due to looking ancient greek. Yet i am curious what sorts of cultural marvels you have in mind when you think people here or elsewhere in Europe would not know what it is they are looking it if they weren't so fused with american culture. Even the 'mall' is a collection of stores, not unheard of in similar form here or elsewhere in Europe/other continents.

 

[warpus]

@Timsup2nothin Have you ever travelled to another country, though? An honestly foreign one, and not just like say, Canada?

Watching popular culture movies from a place can prepare you for a trip to that place, to a small extent. Just not to the extent that you seem to claim. For example, it's clear to me from watching American media, that the American landscape revolves around the car. Pedestrians, what's that? But a lot of people might not latch onto that nuance and might get a huge cultureshock when they arrive in Texas and there is no public transit and no sidewalks to walk on or whatever.

Popular media usually shows us American society through some sort of a cartoony or exaggerated lens. I saw plenty of American media before I came to Canada.. What did I expect when I finally came here? Not at all what I ended up arriving to. I had an idea of how things would be in my mind, but they were very different. The ideas I had in my head about what life is here in North America were very warped - the TV shows and movies I had been watching in West Germany usually highlighted exaggerated aspects of North American culture that were relevant to the plot. Most social and cultural nuances are not communicated via such media very well, you have to just come here and live it to "get it".