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It's more when you pick an outcome, cherry pick the the evidence you like for said outcome and dismiss or fake news opposing evidence.
Yeah, so what have I dismissed as fake news? Anything at all? Because by my count what's happening is that I'm the one coming in with evidence and others are the ones exercising their "discretion" to decide what to ignore. The rest of your post I have no comment on.
 
Oh, I'm sorry they provided unifroms and gave them permission to form their own law enforcement in the short period of time the Soviets occupied North Korea after WWII... meanwhile behind the facade of this innocent looking bookstore....




Oh looky its America's largest military base overseas... lol snark aside, I jsut want to bring you around again to the point that my curiosity around this is not the cold war machinations itself, by the red scare in the mid and late forties that was all locked in to one degree or another, my curiosity is why and how the red scare was produced in the first place, as it jsut feels very very fake, Socialists worldwide were very weak and the USSR itself never stood a chance against the US and all of western Europe.

If Soviets went Red Storm Rising they possibly could have overwhelmed western Europe. Might cost them some nuked cities.

Nukes or strategic bombing Baku might have stopped them idk.

Even Stalin wasn't that nuts/paranoid though so moot point.
 
Yeah, so what have I dismissed as fake news? Anything at all? Because by my count what's happening is that I'm the one coming in with evidence and others are the ones exercising their "discretion" to decide what to ignore. The rest of your post I have no comment on.

Other threads you downplay or whataboutism. Do you deny the gulag. Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Killing Fields, Vietnam boat people?

USA did some atrocious things but tgat was the context of thise sections that continued into the 1970s. Lesser of two evils.

Ir thise massive numbers of tanks bolt or statements about nukes being built like sausages? The red threat was over exaggerated but the actions if the USSR in public.....

Ironically I've listened to the leaders of East and west Germany talking. Very polite asking about the weather.

Americans do tend to cartoon evil their opponents not just red scare.Nazis, Islamic extremists etc. Makes my teeth itch.
 
So is your position actually "There is no such thing as objective truth and we can't know it and we have to just support our governments blindly until the day we die?"

I am constructing narratives that explain things. It is just like when Newton shows the phenomenon that brings apples to Earth is called gravity. This is like the gravity of politics and history that I'm laying down for you. And not just me, frankly, but everyone else in this thread who is capable of the nuance to understand that the reasons the US undertakes certain actions are knowable, predictable, and preventable. It isn't just random. But it requires you to come in and deal with the subject matter with proper methodological rigor and not the slippery positions you advocate. The past 7 years, too, are explainable and understandable without throwing up your arms and praying to old pieties.
Of course there is objective truth. It is easier to establish it a the lowest level of activity: "He signed the document. He was seen holding a gun. The money was moved into the account." When you say because Japan owns US bonds, such and such must be, it gets stickier. Bonds are bought for different reasons; they often get sold and maybe replaced. Finances are dynamic. China owns lots of US bonds, are they locked into obeying US policy? Nothing has been said previously about "blindly following government policy." There is no reason any one should.

Nixon's actions around Watergate are pretty interesting and the details that came out important. Those event drove other events too and we see remnants influencing events around Trump. None of that diminishes the larger picture of presidential misconduct even though 50 years later the details of a taped door and taped conversations have become less relevant. Your journey through the all the messy details is important for you because of X, Y and Z. When discussing the specifics of events, details can be helpful. See my post above about Soviet training and equipping NK troops. Estebonrober disputed my claim and I went and dug out details that seem to support my position. He then went and posted about US bases as if it was somehow related to the Soviet training of NK troops. Not much discussion, just passing "facts" back and forth.

If we were arguing about how, idk, US economic policy has shaped US foreign policy, then perhaps all your detailed information would be important. The last 7 years are explainable in hindsight. Looking backward in 2016 would not have been much use in figuring out what was to come. Looking back at Hamas actions between 2010 and 2022 would not have helped head off Oct 7, 2023. Why we do things is important and mostly not part of the conversation. :)
 
Of course there is objective truth. It is easier to establish it a the lowest level of activity: "He signed the document. He was seen holding a gun. The money was moved into the account." When you say because Japan owns US bonds, such and such must be, it gets stickier. Bonds are bought for different reasons; they often get sold and maybe replaced. Finances are dynamic. China owns lots of US bonds, are they locked into obeying US policy?

Holding those bonds does in some ways obligate China to US policy, yes.

Birdjaguar said:
Nixon's actions around Watergate are pretty interesting and the details that came out important. Those event drove other events too and we see remnants influencing events around Trump. None of that diminishes the larger picture of presidential misconduct even though 50 years later the details of a taped door and taped conversations have become less relevant. Your journey through the all the messy details is important for you because of X, Y and Z. When discussing the specifics of events, details can be helpful. See my post above about Soviet training and equipping NK troops. Estebonrober disputed my claim and I went and dug out details that seem to support my position. He then went and posted about US bases as if it was somehow related to the Soviet training of NK troops. Not much discussion, just passing "facts" back and forth.

Not to sound uncharitable, but I don't think you've tried hard enough to gain Estebonrober's position, and none of this changes my characterization of the interaction. But this is a good illustration actually: your response on the Soviet training and NK troops didn't actually contain a claim on your part. You just bolded portions of an article. What is anyone supposed to take from that but try to guess at your position? Then no matter what you can always claim they were tilting at windmills. And then land here where there was no discussion at all somehow, just a one-sided one that Estebonrober undertook out of their fool-hearted good grace and good will. Perhaps now they see what a waste of time that was.

Birdjaguar said:
If we were arguing about how, idk, US economic policy has shaped US foreign policy, then perhaps all your detailed information would be important.

The subject of the thread is how US foreign policy has shaped North and South Korea's everything policy. It's about the gravitational pull of the American empire and the consequences it creates. The bottom line is that there's a good argument to be made that if the U.S. were removed from the equation, then everything else staying the same, the Koreas could unite. There is a long history suggesting this as the case, and as case in point: America is still technically at war with North Korea. Now why is that? What could America do to change that, for the good of all Korea? These are the questions you're being asked to answer. When we fail to answer such questions, it is a dishonor on all of us and on our country.

Birdjaguar said:
The last 7 years are explainable in hindsight. Looking backward in 2016 would not have been much use in figuring out what was to come. Looking back at Hamas actions between 2010 and 2022 would not have helped head off Oct 7, 2023. Why we do things is important and mostly not part of the conversation. :)

Hard disagree, the signs were all there. There's nothing special or exceptional about Trump's election at all, almost.
 
@Crezth except for the fact they literally elected one of (if not the worst) the worst presidents in US History
 
If we were arguing about how, idk, US economic policy has shaped US foreign policy, then perhaps all your detailed information would be important. The last 7 years are explainable in hindsight. Looking backward in 2016 would not have been much use in figuring out what was to come. Looking back at Hamas actions between 2010 and 2022 would not have helped head off Oct 7, 2023. Why we do things is important and mostly not part of the conversation. :)

Economic policy usually serves foreign policy, more than the other way around. In details, against weaker states, economic exploitation is possible backed by foreign policy (threats or outright intervention).
But against peer states, economis is used as one of the tools of inter-state competition. It does not command its dynamics. If it did then the theories that WW I was impossible because of so much trade between the future beliigerents would have held true.

Economic possibilities also limit foreign policy, in that empires are very expensive to maintain, the military cost is huge. The British Empire was nearly bankrupted after WW I. It still took ground after it, but had to let the saudis take Arabia because Churchill coudn't find the funds or the justification for an expedition to back the Hashemite there. It didn't tear what is now Turkey down to pieces for the same motive, no funds.

After WW2 the arrangement imposed by Roosevelt's team on the british at Bretton Woods killed the British Empire, sealed their inability to cling to India. Smaller anti-colonial uprisings across the remnants of the empire inevitably ended with british widrawal even where they could win some military fights - the cost of continued occupation was too high. The foreign policy estabelishment in London even had its own ministries for the colonies. The jobs of those people, and the jobs of a huge caste of officers of the british armed forces, depended on the continuation of the Empire. But when the economy ceased being able to maintain it, these had to find something else to do and cease living from - pardon me, serve - the state.

The current county with hegemonic pretensions is overspending like the british were doing after WW1. Has been since Vietnam at least. It's all on the back of the exhorbitant privelege of the rest of the world buying dollars, effectively sustaining the deficits that the huge US military spending require of its government. I think that the receivers of the attentions of that machine have by now understood this and are reacting to it.
So far, and since the 1970s, US economic policy has been chosen to serve its foreign policy estabelishment. The promotion of the dollar as international currency, the move out of gold-convertible settlements and to floating exchange rates, the whole neo-liberal "Washington consensus" stemming from it, including the "liberalization" of international finance - these were born of an expedient as the only possible way for the US to continue to spend so much on its military. Economists pretend this just happened, or was the result of some liberal teleology. No, it was a political choice. And one made to serve the needs of a political caste at the time. It has served this caste well for 50 years, they and their descendants are still in place, still earning their wages serving the state, and have even found new sources of income in a more promiscuous private-public environment.
 
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Holding those bonds does in some ways obligate China to US policy, yes.
Not really. Terms for bonds are mostly fixed depending upon the bonds owned. China owns about $800 billion USD in US Treasuries (down from $930 billion a year ago) out of $30 trillion owned by others. They are not the largest holder. The bonds pay interest. A mass selling of them would likely drive bond prices down and bond interest up. And typically, a decrease in bond prices raises the prices of stocks. The security of US Treasuries makes them one of the safest investments one can make. US policy is mostly independent of what happens to the value of existing treasuries. Future treasury sales can be affected, but not past. The down side to owning US treasuries is that while you hold them, you cannot invest that money in higher return opportunities. Holding a 10 year treasury with a 3% rate is stable for the 10 year run.

The subject of the thread is how US foreign policy has shaped North and South Korea's everything policy. It's about the gravitational pull of the American empire and the consequences it creates. The bottom line is that there's a good argument to be made that if the U.S. were removed from the equation, then everything else staying the same, the Koreas could unite. There is a long history suggesting this as the case, and as case in point: America is still technically at war with North Korea. Now why is that? What could America do to change that, for the good of all Korea? These are the questions you're being asked to answer. When we fail to answer such questions, it is a dishonor on all of us and on our country.
When? 50 years ago? 30 years ago? Now? Sure maybe, but "everything" never remains the same. Too many things are connected. If the US is pulled out of the equation, lots of things automatically change. If your goal is to figure out how to show that the US has kept Korea un-united against the will of the people, you will only be speculating as if how reconstruction would have happened if Lincoln had not been shot. What would 2023 look like if the Pusan pocket had failed and Kim conquered all Korea? Who the f knows. Would Vietnam not happened? If the goal is to somehow prove that it is the US's fault that Korea is divided, go for it. I see that as pointless in any sense related to solving our current problems. Why are we at war with NK? Technically we are not. The UN was at war and NK has never accepted that the Kim family is not ruler of all Korea. There is a ceasefire. After the ceasefire, the UN left and the US positioned itself to ensure the ceasefire. It has been a 70 year habit. Why hasn't NK accepted they are not rulers of the South? Who is asking the Kims that? The Kims are a significant part of the problem. It takes both sides to end a war, special operation, or move from a cease fire to something more stable.

I could create a scenario that includes Kim winning in Pusan in 1950 and setting up his dictatorship and Korea being just as badly off in alt 2023 as it is now. No one knows what a united Korea in 1948 would look like today or what the impact of such an event would have on the rest of Asia. I have no trouble with pointing out how the US has often been an international bully (along with others). Perhaps we have been less of a bully since leaving Afghanistan. The US has many detractors from all over the world who want to find fault within every aspect of US culture and politics. With the advent of the internet, such efforts have gone viral. People hate the US for any number of reason from personal experience to ideological. None the less, they buy US stocks and bonds, flee to it when oppressed, invest in our real estate and companies, have babies here for citizenship, come here for education and work, stay here because they can speak out more freely than other places. And right now the US is a f'up mess. And still they come.
 
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Not really. Terms for bonds are mostly fixed depending upon the bonds owned. China owns about $800 billion USD in US Treasuries (down from $930 billion a year ago) out of $30 trillion owned by others. They are not the largest holder. The bonds pay interest. A mass selling of them would likely drive bond prices down and bond interest up. And typically, a decrease in bond prices raises the prices of stocks. The security of US Treasuries makes them one of the safest investments one can make. US policy is mostly independent of what happens to the value of existing treasuries. Future treasury sales can be affected, but not past. The down side to owning US treasuries is that while you hold them, you cannot invest that money in higher return opportunities. Holding a 10 year treasury with a 3% rate is stable for the 10 year run.

A mass selling requires a mass buying. Anyway, foreign countries owning treasuries is a key pillar of stability for the U.S. economy and essentially means that $7.4 trillion of U.S. "productivity" is underwritten by the world. It's intrinsically linked to the mischief of the Federal Reserve in a way I don't feel like getting into and gets beyond the scope of the class. For guidance, I recommend you (or anyone) look up the effects of inflation on holders of U.S. reserve currency and, for example, the terms and criticisms of the Plaza Accords.

Birdjaguar said:
The US has many detractors from all over the world who want to find fault within every aspect of US culture and politics. With the advent of the internet, such efforts have gone viral. People hate the US for any number of reason from personal experience to ideological. None the less, they buy US stocks and bonds, flee to it when oppressed, invest in our real estate and companies, have babies here for citizenship, come here for education and work, stay here because they can speak out more freely than other places. And right now the US is a f'up mess. And still they come.

This really drills down to it. Capitalism is based on the gravitational pull of finance. Finance has staked itself in America. And that money was not earned but taken, extracted at gun and missile-point not only in America but all across the world for hundreds of years and hoarded in the disgusting achievements of a ruthless class of patricians who are sucking the bone marrow out of the planet as we live and breathe. There is always something to be said for wealth produced from gainful self-actualization and honest enterprise, but that is not the story of this country of gangsters and landlords. This is a place ruled by cruelty and whim as it ever has been. Any psycho who wants to get in on that, or any honest soul who just wants to escape the falling bombs - where else can they go but the source of those bombs? It's the biggest landowning ponzi scheme in history. I don't think the piles of Mammon's gains offset the seething masses of those crowding the gates as they flee our PMCs and RGOs.
 
OK, you win with that post. I do not have any reply.
 
If mass conquest had happened, survivorship bias would make it easy for liberal minds to write off 80 years of bad things that happened instead as simply a neutral "dead."

<poof> Magic.

Not just liberals. Y u struggle? Struggle is pain. Shhhh.
 
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Probably the most offensive lie of my history courses was the notion that slavery ended in western europe with the rise of serfdom, until the atlantic slave trade. Western Europeans were keeping and trading slaves the whole time.
 
I do not good sir, this is the kind of ignorance of historical reality versus perceived reality. North Korea did not receive US aid until 1995, after the famine, while debilitating sanctions were in place, and woefully inadequate to even begin to mitigate the disaster.
I mean it was Soviet and Chinese aid that was propping up the North Korean economy, one that suffered greatly after the end of the E. European communist bloc.
 
slavery ended in western europe with the rise of serfdom
holy balls, yea, that is egregious.

mind you, i know of what you've read and learned, so i know of your position; i just wanted to underline that, as you noted, this is, well, egregious.
 
Serfdom was practically another form of slavery. (Probably wrong, if it is then tell me)
 
Serfdom was practically another form of slavery. (Probably wrong, if it is then tell me)
I think serfdom very different from slavery.
In serfdom you can still have your family united and not shared to several slaver owners.
As you are not an object in serfdom, you can have objects as a house.
 
I think serfdom very different from slavery.
In serfdom you can still have your family united and not shared to several slaver owners.
As you are not an object in serfdom, you can have objects as a house.
Yeah, I get what you’re saying here. But then again, what I classify as slavery is labour without payment.
Also, while I’ve learned a lot about slavery, I haven’t learned a lot about serfdom.
 
Yeah, I get what you’re saying here. But then again, what I classify as slavery is labour without payment.
Also, while I’ve learned a lot about slavery, I haven’t learned a lot about serfdom.
What kind of serfdom are you talking about?

There is a serfdom of ancient egypt, where the population work to the pharaoh but the pharaoh give bread to the population on return.
Also there is the middle age serfdom, where the worker have at least a land to work out.
 
south korea incurred on north multiple times including summer of 1950... pot.kettle
listen to the podcast, challenge yourself.

North Korea supported armed communist insurgency in the South
Leading to Major clashes by invading North Korean conventional forces below the 38th Parrel with SK forces defending in 1948-1949

We have Google
Feel free to move to North Korea
 
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