Born of Fire: Discussion and Development Thread
- Thread starter RedAlert
- Start date
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Always better to concentrate on the creation that most motivates you to continue, rather than give up completely. Our mutual obsession is meant to be relief from the stress of daily life, not another category of unpaid drone labor.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I've been anticipating this masterpiece of yours for years Red, when ever it is finished..I will be waiting and eager to play it.
RedAlert
Love one another
I have been working on some custom popheads for all the culture groups. So far I have completed the regular citizens, and I also intend to create many specialists.
The five culture groups:
Mexican: Aztecs, Huastecs, Mixtecs, Tarascans, Teotihuacan, Toltecs, Zapotecs
Mayan: Maya, Olmecs
Highland Andean: Chavin, Huari, Inca, Tiwanaku
Coastal Andean: Chimu, Moche, Nazca
Tribal: Chachapoya, Chibchan, Mapuche, Pipil
Preview:
--------------------
Good to see you, SoG!
The five culture groups:
Mexican: Aztecs, Huastecs, Mixtecs, Tarascans, Teotihuacan, Toltecs, Zapotecs
Mayan: Maya, Olmecs
Highland Andean: Chavin, Huari, Inca, Tiwanaku
Coastal Andean: Chimu, Moche, Nazca
Tribal: Chachapoya, Chibchan, Mapuche, Pipil
Preview:
--------------------
Good to see you, SoG!
Huayna Capac357
Deity
Oooo...very nice! I might steal some of those 
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
They look incredible Redalert.
Yoda Power
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Those are great RedAlert! I always loved new popheads.
Though the Mayan male seems African to me..?
Though the Mayan male seems African to me..?
RedAlert
Love one another
Thanks all!
For those of you looking to sneak off with the graphics before they're uploaded officially, I updated the above preview with some corrections after testing in-game.
The following specialists are planned:
+Luxuries - Merchant
+Reseach - Priest
+Taxes - Noble
-Corruption - Warrior
+Construction - Slave
In addition, I hope to have a unique specialist for every civilization.
For those of you looking to sneak off with the graphics before they're uploaded officially, I updated the above preview with some corrections after testing in-game.
The following specialists are planned:
+Luxuries - Merchant
+Reseach - Priest
+Taxes - Noble
-Corruption - Warrior
+Construction - Slave
In addition, I hope to have a unique specialist for every civilization.
wolf_brother
King
Interesting idea!
But how exactly do you plan to balance it out for each civ? And how would you keep it from becoming too repetitive per civilization?
The Guardian
Praetorian
Thanks all!
For those of you looking to sneak off with the graphics before they're uploaded officially, I updated the above preview with some corrections after testing in-game.
The following specialists are planned:
+Luxuries - Merchant
+Reseach - Priest
+Taxes - Noble
-Corruption - Warrior
+Construction - Slave
In addition, I hope to have a unique specialist for every civilization.
Someone did a tribute collector. Can't remember who, but I have it . . . somewhere on one of my drives. If want it I'll post it for you RED. That would be easier for me than going looking for it.
Found it View attachment tribute.pcx
Virote_Considon
The Great Dictator
The Guardian
Praetorian
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
You certainly have this all figured out Red! oO
wolf_brother
King
If you haven't already I'd suggest a read of both Guns, Germs and Steel and 1491 to get a stronger idea of pre-Contact native population numbers - they might surprise you.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
Has there been any progress on this since March? I'm really really anticipating it.
RedAlert
Love one another
Shaka Zulu was hit hard by the recession.
Seriously though, he's not much darker than the female Mayan, and his skin is pretty much the same colour as the Mayans portrayed themselves.
Interesting idea!
To tell the truth, I have not quite figured that out yet (or I have forgotten). In any case, I will make known the results of my deliberations.
Someone did a tribute collector. Can't remember who, but I have it . . . somewhere on one of my drives. If want it I'll post it for you RED. That would be easier for me than going looking for it.
Found it View attachment 246081
Thank you both.
I have spent a lot of time thinking and rethinking almost all of the aspects of this mod. That's probably why I haven't got much done! But there are some things I haven't decided on yet (see above), and for those things I am still open to suggestion.
I am in the mood for a bit of reading. Thank you!
No, unfortunately!
I am appreciative of your (and others') anticipation, and I hope that in my slow march forward that do not disappoint.
RedAlert
Love one another
A personal note
I've been keeping very busy with school, but between semesters (every four months or so) I have a few weeks of break in which I devote a lot of my time to modding, including city graphics and this project. As my long absences might suggest, I'm still trying to find that balance between work and play during the rest of the year. I know a lot of you were and perhaps are still anticipating the completion of this mod, so I wanted to let you know that work does continue and progress has been made (however modest). Having said that, I'd like, at the moment, to share the solution I came up with recently for a problem I have been stuck on for some time: how to best incorporate units into the mod.
Representing mesoamerican armies
The problem
There are two distinct (though by no means unique) features of mesoamerican armies which I hope to represent, for reasons both of historical accuracy and for the potential to provide a unique gameplay experience. These are features of:
The implementation of a rank system has been similarly problematic given the inadequacy of two of the possible options. One being, of course, the combat experience system, but a simple gain in hitpoints doesn't achieve the full change in unit abilities or appearance which would more accurately reflect mesoamerican unit promotion. The second, the standard upgrade function, is ruled out because of the potential to conflict with era-to-era upgrading, but also because a unit need not have engaged in combat at all to receive the promotion for which victory in combat was supposedly prerequisite!
The solution
What I had not considered before was that both of these important features could be fully represented using the enslave function. I have taken inspiration from scenarios such as The Rood and the Dragon and Escape From Zombie Island which have, if I remember correctly, both made innovate use of the enslave function. My current plan is as follows:
Further considerations on units
Unit specialization
It has often been my experience while playing civ (and I imagine others have had similar experiences) that one can get away with relying heavily on one, maybe two, unit types in combat, amassing stacks of units of all the same type can be a common tactic (it has been for me). I think it's the desire of a lot of modders to give the player incentive to use effectively and extensively the various types of units which they have bothered to put into the game, and this is my desire as well. I claim no unique or particularly clever solution to this problem, but I have put some thought into how to differentiate unit types such that every one fulfills a different role, and how to make using the right unit for the right situation an appealing and successful strategy. Their are several types of units planned, including priests and scouts, but the primary ones are as follows:
The four main unit types:
In some of my past musings, I've criticized the original system of providing 'unique units' as a relatively superficial way to differentiate civs while still operating on a common 'frame' of standard, shared unit lines. I've argued before that a more genuine approach to differences between civilizations would be to make more substantial alterations to the frame. Due in part to my inexperience, potential game limitations, and the fact that many of the civilizations of mesoamerica have more in common than not, I have nothing revolutionary planned in this regard; however, I want to implement something a little more complex than just giving a unique unit to each civ. As I see it, two of the main strategic effects of unique units are:
For example, the Aztecs weren't as big into using archers as were their neighbours, so they will have disadvantages in the 'siege' line. Rather, the Aztecs relied on the number and prowess of their soldiers in hand-to-hand combat, and will receive corresponding bonuses in the 'warrior' line. Hopefully, such a change will provide incentive to imitate the strategy and tactics of the Aztecs in gameplay. In addition, the Aztecs receive their advantages during the third era, but will have corresponding disadvantages earlier in the game.
Unit graphics?
Just a quick little note here. I'm no unit maker, but I'm not a bad at cut-n-paste and recolouring, so I've been working on a few makeshift mesoamerican unit-graphics to fill some of the gaps. While not perfect, I'm quite happy with the results so far, though I think it speaks more to the skill of our unit makers that something cobbled together à la Frankenstein's monster still looks pretty darn good.
Final note
A big reason for making this post now was just to help me organize my thoughts, but more importantly, if you have any comments, suggestions, or questions for me I would, of course, be glad to receive them and to discuss them with you.
I've been keeping very busy with school, but between semesters (every four months or so) I have a few weeks of break in which I devote a lot of my time to modding, including city graphics and this project. As my long absences might suggest, I'm still trying to find that balance between work and play during the rest of the year. I know a lot of you were and perhaps are still anticipating the completion of this mod, so I wanted to let you know that work does continue and progress has been made (however modest). Having said that, I'd like, at the moment, to share the solution I came up with recently for a problem I have been stuck on for some time: how to best incorporate units into the mod.
Representing mesoamerican armies
The problem
There are two distinct (though by no means unique) features of mesoamerican armies which I hope to represent, for reasons both of historical accuracy and for the potential to provide a unique gameplay experience. These are features of:
- Composition: mesoamerican armies were made up largely of peasant and common soldiers; only a relatively small portion were the elaborately dressed higher ranking or noble soldiers with whom we are more familiar.
- Rank: many mesoamerican armies, most famously the aztecs, had systems of promotion in which victorious soldiers who took enemy captives would receive systematic promotion to a different unit 'type' of higher rank.
The implementation of a rank system has been similarly problematic given the inadequacy of two of the possible options. One being, of course, the combat experience system, but a simple gain in hitpoints doesn't achieve the full change in unit abilities or appearance which would more accurately reflect mesoamerican unit promotion. The second, the standard upgrade function, is ruled out because of the potential to conflict with era-to-era upgrading, but also because a unit need not have engaged in combat at all to receive the promotion for which victory in combat was supposedly prerequisite!
The solution
What I had not considered before was that both of these important features could be fully represented using the enslave function. I have taken inspiration from scenarios such as The Rood and the Dragon and Escape From Zombie Island which have, if I remember correctly, both made innovate use of the enslave function. My current plan is as follows:
- All civs will only* be able to build peasant/common (level 1) soldiers directly.
- Each type (e.g. atlatl, spear) of level one soldier will have the enslave ability, with the 'enslave results in' option set to the level 2 soldier (higher-ranking/noble) of the same type.
- In some cases, the level 2 soldier will be able to 'promote to' (enslave) a level 3 soldier (possibly elite troops of some sort).
- Peasant/common troops should make up the bulk of most armies (particularly of those civs who have engaged in little combat), while higher-ranking/noble/elite troops will be comparatively less common (though their numbers may grow in reflection of success in warfare.)
- Individual units which have been successful in combat will be able to 'promote to' (that is, enslave) units of higher rank, without having to resort to the regular combat experience or unit upgrade systems.
Further considerations on units
Unit specialization
It has often been my experience while playing civ (and I imagine others have had similar experiences) that one can get away with relying heavily on one, maybe two, unit types in combat, amassing stacks of units of all the same type can be a common tactic (it has been for me). I think it's the desire of a lot of modders to give the player incentive to use effectively and extensively the various types of units which they have bothered to put into the game, and this is my desire as well. I claim no unique or particularly clever solution to this problem, but I have put some thought into how to differentiate unit types such that every one fulfills a different role, and how to make using the right unit for the right situation an appealing and successful strategy. Their are several types of units planned, including priests and scouts, but the primary ones are as follows:
The four main unit types:
- Warriors: Close combat assault troops armed with mace, axe, or macana; they fulfill the main offensive role and have the most powerful 'promotions,' the top tier of which will enslave actual captives which can be used in sacrifice.
- Defenders: Close combat spear troops; as the lone defensive line, their use is to guard cities and, in the field, to protect vulnerable offensive troops.
- Skirmishers: Armed with a spearthrower, these ranged troops will act as the 'snipers,' with light bombard capability, stealth attack, and in some cases, lethal land bombard.
- Besiegers: Bow and sling armed soldiers act as siege units with light combat capability; they will have a powerful bombard, useful for taking and defending cities.
In some of my past musings, I've criticized the original system of providing 'unique units' as a relatively superficial way to differentiate civs while still operating on a common 'frame' of standard, shared unit lines. I've argued before that a more genuine approach to differences between civilizations would be to make more substantial alterations to the frame. Due in part to my inexperience, potential game limitations, and the fact that many of the civilizations of mesoamerica have more in common than not, I have nothing revolutionary planned in this regard; however, I want to implement something a little more complex than just giving a unique unit to each civ. As I see it, two of the main strategic effects of unique units are:
- They provide incentive for the player to rely more on a specific type of unit (the UU), perhaps as opposed to (an)other(s) during the era in which the UU is available.
- They give the player an era-specific advantage relative to other eras.
- Advantages:
- Each civ will be given certain unit-advantages designed to emphasize their historical proficiencies with certain types of combat at certain times. This advantage may take the form of access to a 'beefed up' version of another unit (the same as standard UUs), the ability of a unit to 'promote' (enslave) to a unit which other civs lack, the ability to manually recruit units which other civs can only get through promotion, and so on.
- Each civ will be given corresponding disadvantages in other areas designed to counterbalance their advantages while augmenting their importance. This may take the form of the inability to build or 'promote' to a unit or type of unit which other civs have access to, or a limitation to only weaker versions or more costly versions of those units.
For example, the Aztecs weren't as big into using archers as were their neighbours, so they will have disadvantages in the 'siege' line. Rather, the Aztecs relied on the number and prowess of their soldiers in hand-to-hand combat, and will receive corresponding bonuses in the 'warrior' line. Hopefully, such a change will provide incentive to imitate the strategy and tactics of the Aztecs in gameplay. In addition, the Aztecs receive their advantages during the third era, but will have corresponding disadvantages earlier in the game.
Unit graphics?
Just a quick little note here. I'm no unit maker, but I'm not a bad at cut-n-paste and recolouring, so I've been working on a few makeshift mesoamerican unit-graphics to fill some of the gaps. While not perfect, I'm quite happy with the results so far, though I think it speaks more to the skill of our unit makers that something cobbled together à la Frankenstein's monster still looks pretty darn good.
Final note
A big reason for making this post now was just to help me organize my thoughts, but more importantly, if you have any comments, suggestions, or questions for me I would, of course, be glad to receive them and to discuss them with you.
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
I dont think you'll have to, I based several of my Meso American units off of your conecept art.
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