• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Brave New Realpolitik

Speech:

Oh Mr. Jehoshua, you seem to say we and the Brazilian people are illiterate (Ooc: Actually we all are, we haven't discovered writing yet :p), but in reality we have read this document better than he planned: it is quite the brazen attack on our traditions of liberty.

I also enjoy his implication of Tycho's overarching unlimited power. I know what Tycho has been doing the past 400 years: supporting scientific progress. That is it. No mass executions, no coup, no wild hedonistic parties, nor any other abuses of power. Tycho is a kind man, and an honest man. A man we Brazilians can trust and look up to. He is no Autocratic tyrant, he is a man of the people,

And I call on you to think Brazilians, these autocrats want absolute power for themselves, so if our current government was all powerful, why would they seek to change it?

If this joker Jehoshua wishes to hold a position in our great nation, I will give him one that fits his poor wit and humor about our "despotic" rule.
I name Jehoshua City Jester of Rio.

Maybe that honorable post will sate his instifleable urge for power.
 
You say it would bring his own end to make new elections, but in your constitution he would be able to choose his successor so the "ring" could simply have a different one of their members be the emperor. You even state we would use ths to our on advantage which proves you are simply trying to tarnish our reputation as if we want to abuse this constitution we would not be voting against it.
 
So, Jehoshua, honest question; what exactly stops the Emperor from dissolving the government if people in other positions of the government who do not agree with him do something that he does not like? What checks are there on the Emperor in this case? Why should we appoint an immortal Autocrat that we can't replace until he dies in order to stem "corruption" and dissolve the government, calling for new elections?

The least that you could have done in this situation is proposed a document that would have established protocols and such other then "dissolving the government to stem corruption and make new elections". While the idea of the Emperor's ascendancy removing any ties from any political party, it is in practice an ultimately futile movement due to the ties that bind said person to the party that he was allied with for quite some time.
 
ooc: reading could = understanding. As you read omens in the sky or whatever if we are all illiterate. Or we could presume that Immortals being strange beings know the mysteries of signs long forgotten to ordinary men. Either way arguing over semantics is tedious no :p

-

IC: @Teekaj: I of course am not saying the Brazilian people cannot read what is clearly evident in the proposal, only that the Social Democrats can't, or more likely are wilfully falsifying the document for their own ends, resorting to lies rather than facts in tacit acknowledgement of their utter lack of any rational basis to oppose the proposal.

This you, like your confreres, continue to do. For example you accuse the proposal of violating supposed traditions of liberty, and yet you end your statement there. You provide no evidence or explanation for precisely how it is an attack on liberty, rather you expect the Brazilian people to believe what you say despite the fact that you, your leader Tycho, and your entire party have already been entirely discredited by their own outrageous actions in this debate.

As to your question about changing in a fairly moderate way the way our government works, the answer of course considering the current absolute unchecked power of the current system is that we desire positive reform so that such absolute power is not concentrated in a single persons hands. You imply that we seek absolute power, and yet the proposal itself self-evidently results in the outcome that no position is as powerful as the current President, who by virtue of his dominion over party and government has the powers of both the Prime Minister AND the Emperor established in the proposal the TABD has brought forward.

This concentration of power in one persons hands is dangerous, and detrimental to the rule of the law the shaman so wisely espoused and proclaimed. Thus why this proposal separates the powers of the repository, the powers that serve to protect and watch over the nation, from those of the executive and legislative instead of conflating all branches of political power in the hands of one, unchecked, position, a position currently occupied by a man who's noted achievement is overseeing an alternative to baskets and the recovery of the knowledge of the past which he so disdains. A man who's policies and arguments are so sparse and insubstantial that he had to resort to falsifications and outright lies when opposing the reasonable and progressive policies of the TABP who along with our Imperialist associates are the only ones actually seeking to improve the way this country governs itself.

-

@Tycho: The reform proposal notes that responsibilities for ministers lower down than the Prime Minister are the purview of the Prime Minister. A problem thus in a specific area is already specifically defined to be within the elected Prime Ministers competence. The power we propose to give to the Emperor (dismissal of governments) as such applies to the collective whole, and cannot be legally applied on the basis of a single official down the government apparatus. The Emperor could only as such use with evident legality this power when the government as a whole is either clearly dysfunctional and unable to competently administer the nations affairs, or acting as a collective beyond its competence as established by law. As the proposal puts it, the dismissal of a government can occur only in the event of undue corruption (of the government which is a collective) or other need (dysfunction, assassination of most members, or some other thing which impairs the governments ability to function). This is clear, and continued statements implying constant dismissal are simply absurd fearmongering based on vapours rather than solid fact, of which you yourself as I noted have been egregiously guilty.

As to the removal of political ties. The person self-evidently cannot be separated from his attachments and beliefs, that is clear. However the Emperor can as a function and office. In ones capacity as Emperor, a person fulfils a very specifically defined role as a repository branch of government, as a link between past and present, the memory of the nation. In the exercise of these roles the Emperor would indeed be distinctly separated from political parties, and the political debate even if as a private individual he is entitled to his own views. Ergo, the goal is to separate the office of the Emperor from party and partisanship, rather than to pretend that somehow becoming Emperor would remove a persons personal views and values.
 
This you, like your confreres, continue to do. For example you accuse the proposal of violating supposed traditions of liberty, and yet you end your statement there. You provide no evidence or explanation for precisely how it is an attack on liberty, rather you expect the Brazilian people to believe what you say despite the fact that you, your leader Tycho, and your entire party have already been entirely discredited by their own outrageous actions in this debate.

Your argument would hold water if it wasn't the fact that your very party is the Traditional Autocrats Party, and the very definition of autocracy is "a system of government in which a supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control". We can argue about this and go around in circles till the sun goes dark, but your plan looks extremely suspicious considering that you want an Emperor to be elected into power while removing any supposed connections to the party, who is able to dissolve the government at a whim if he decides that "corruption" has taken hold, and he can't be removed from power or kept in check except through a suddenly terminal case of death to the life gland, not to mention the dissolution of the government thing.
 
a system of government in which a supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control".

Which precisely defines the role of the Emperor as beyond politics, and is not regularly re-elected (and thus sullied by the mechanics of popular politics) who possesses the supreme power of veto should he discern the need to apply it and who is self-evidently a single individual. As to the rest of your statement, since you are now resorting to mere "suspicions' and have yet to point out any aspect of the bill itself that in any way injurious to the state, the people or to tradition, there seems to be very little need to continue this discussion as very clearly the Social Democrat Party has nothing whatsoever to actually say on the substance of the matter and is incapable of rebutting the reason and logic of the TABP's responses to its unreasonable and illogical criticisms of the proposed governmental reform.
 
Which precisely defines the role of the Emperor as beyond politics, and is not regularly re-elected (and thus sullied by the mechanics of popular politics) who possesses the supreme power of veto should he discern the need to apply it and who is self-evidently a single individual. As to the rest of your statement, since you are now resorting to mere "suspicions' and have yet to point out any aspect of the bill itself that in any way injurious to the state, the people or to tradition, there seems to be very little need to continue this discussion as very clearly the Social Democrat Party has nothing whatsoever to actually say on the substance of the matter and is incapable of rebutting the reason and logic of the TABP's responses to its unreasonable and illogical criticisms of the proposed governmental reform.

One last question then. In the Imperial Reform Act, the status of the Emperor is listed as such.

Emperor: (Veto, Dissolve Government, Approve Decree, Choose State Religion), The Emperor is the leader of the nation. Being immortal he shall remain in power eternally until either accident or untimely death necessitates the ascendance of a new Immortal Emperor. Succession is determined by a secret list of three successors in order of primacy established by the Emperor of the day.

It is the Emperors job to protect the traditions of the nation, and ward against abuse of political power as a check and balance on elected political leaders. The Emperor as such has the veto, and must approve all decrees put in place by the prime minister. The Emperor has the power to dissolve government necessitating new elections in the event he sees undue corruption, or other need. The Emperor also has the right to determine the states official religion (or lack thereof). Upon accession to the throne forfeits membership in any political party, to be resumed after temporary incapacitation via accident or untimely death and the accession of a successor.

I've checked, and it doesn't seem to say anywhere how the Emperor actually ascends to power. If he is elected into power, as I am assuming, what is to stop him from favoring the parties that got him elected into power and opposing those that stood against him, besides a single half line in your Reform Act. In my opinion, if you want this to go through, the Emperor must have three quarters of the vote of the others involved, if not requiring a total unanimous vote into power, otherwise it will just be a mess.
 
Emperor: (Veto, Dissolve Government, Approve Decree, Choose State Religion), The Emperor is the leader of the nation. Being immortal he shall remain in power eternally until either accident or untimely death necessitates the ascendance of a new Immortal Emperor. Succession is determined by a secret list of three successors in order of primacy established by the Emperor of the day.

That is a quote taken directly from your constitution. The power of the emperor are as follows:
(Note that these are assumptions based on the fact you haven't given any real powers for him, in which I could only assume you will make up when you become emperor.)

VETO: The power to strike down something approved by a majority of elected officials.

Dissolve Government: How is it possible for this not to be oppressive. If you disagree with the policies of your ELECTED officials, you get rid of them.

Choose State Religion: Why would we have a state religion? It is counterintuitive to a free society. The SDLB denounce a state religion, citizens may follow whichever spirits the wish

So Jester, what is your response to this. Your vague wordings and doublespeak will not protect you from the ire of the intelegent Brazilians
 
@ Tycho: The Reform Proposal presumes ordinary procedures for choosing a political head apply for institution of the first Emperor, since that is the lawfully established system at this time. Since secret ballot is normative practice (save a few immortals who insist on making their allegiances known publically) amongst the citizenry, there is no mechanical problem with the vote in regards to favouring those who voted for the first Emperor. As to your opinion on the proportion of votes, one can understand why you say that considering your entire position is to oppose by any means much needed reform to our political system.

@ Teekaj: Veto is a power already held by the president, need I mention. As to dissolving government it, in effect as has already been noted is practically simply the calling of new elections in the event of some dysfunction. That is hardly oppressive and indeed the alternative, having an unaccountable government that cant function and which cannot be immediately replaced by the peoples democratic vote IS truly oppressive. As to state religion, I am insulted at your blasphemy against the gods and your profound disrespect to the eminent role of the shamans and in particularly the chief shaman in the life of Brazil, who's role it is to discern right doctrine (religious beliefs) and social policy for our people as established in your own parties current government. It is profoundly disturbing to think that the Social Democrats disdain the gods, and are blasphemers, in addition to their proven trait of deception when they chose to argue on falsehood, rather than the facts of the proposal itself... Either way, the rule regarding choosing state religion is a simple transfer of that role from Shaman to the ultimate representation of the nation, the Pater Patriae, who would be in this proposal the Emperor. It is infinitely better to have the highest national authority choose such a profound matter of the religion of state rather than a subordinate one, although natural he would take the advice of the religious clerics most seriously, unlike it seems the current government.

-

ooc: hard to argue for secularism Teekaj when we are already in a theocracy :p In practice people may not "follow whichever spirits they wish" as evidenced by the fact the shaman explicitly is tasked to ensure people follow a certain religious path under the current order, albeit the opportunity has yet to arise due to the spiritual darkness Brazil is subjected too under socialist rule ;)
 
It seems to me that the members of the Social Party make excuses to continue their dictatorial rule, which has no limits.
 
The Reform Proposal presumes ordinary procedures for choosing a political head apply for institution of the first Emperor, since that is the lawfully established system at this time. Since secret ballot is normative practice (save a few immortals who insist on making their allegiances known publically) amongst the citizenry, there is no mechanical problem with the vote in regards to favouring those who voted for the first Emperor. As to your opinion on the proportion of votes, one can understand why you say that considering your entire position is to oppose by any means much needed reform to our political system

In continuation of my previous statement, the idea of an IMMORTAL RULER OF LIFE with the power to dismiss government, who's successors are appointed and only known by him is a rather blatant power grab.

In addition, we are in fact trying to reform the government. We were working on the idea of a Republican Monarchy, until some Autocrat started trying to seize power.

Edit: Interestingly enough, our constitution doesn't have a veto power in it.
 
Choose State Religion: Why would we have a state religion? It is counterintuitive to a free society. The SDLB denounce a state religion, citizens may follow whichever spirits the wish

Speech:

The ruling party dismisses our shamans and men of the mystic and for what? In something called a free society where a heathen, something called a heretic can simply profane our gods in the name of free speech? It is one thing to reach questions that challenge our believes when those questions are arrived to after years of research and thought.

But the administration openly questions things that are clearly true. The administration is stating that it is okay for a heretic to tell his son that the sky is purple, because that is what he "believes".

Beliefs give way to facts, and the fact is is that religion is a guiding moral hand in our daily decision making. When a guest comes over to your house, the guest right exists because of the guardian spirits who reward those who grant the right and punishes those who don't. When a man can deny a guest the guest right simply because he doesn't believe in guest rights, and kills the guest, and can turn to a government that says, "He has the right to believe whatever he wants", something clearly went wrong during the election.

The administration insults any who don't agree with it. It calls anybody who comes forward with sound reasons and logic for reform by calling them jesters. From one corner of the liar's mouth, he says everyone has a right to believe what they want. Then out the other he insults those who don't agree with his beliefs.

Brazil will vote better next time I believe.

This is why we need an Emperor. An Immortal beyond the petty politics beneath him or her.
 
It seems to me that the members of the Social Party make excuses to continue their dictatorial rule, which has no limits.

That is not true as many members (myself included) are supportive of a system which would limit the amount of times a party coud control a particular position, in fact I dare say they are the majority in our party.
 
It seems these disputes must be settled once and for all by taking them to the polls. Everyone has had their say; it is time to ask the people.
 
@Teekaj/Brazilian People: And thus you resort as your entire party has, to vague fearmongering without a ounce of fact or reason. Indeed the sudden appearance of a stated goal to establish a "republican monarchy" comes with no evidence, and indeed your sudden support for monarchy suggests that you see the light with regards to the institutions actual necessity within our political system. A good thing, if it leads you to reason I suppose.

Either way, what every Brazilian can learn from this debate is the clear choice they have to make in the coming elections. The TABP has used sound reason, logic, facts in its arguments, it has presented its policies with no delusions or lies and defended them soundly against vigorous criticism. It has likewise proactively sought positive reform in our political system, which is in dire need of it.

The Social Democratic Party has contrastingly not used sound reason, logic or facts in its arguments and instead has resorted to plain mockery, ad hominem attacks, and vicious slanders. So too has it failed to defend against responses to its criticism, simply resorting to fearmongering and vague spectres of doom, spectres which were proven fallacious by the fact they resorted to deceiving you, the Brazilian people, on the content of the proposal, a deception which was definitively exposed. Finally, desperate as the sand walls of their empty rhetoric collapsed around them they committed the abomination of blasphemy, showing their true colours and their opposition to the gods themselves in their vain bid to retain dominion and total control. Something that it seems our good shaman has unfortunately failed to see until now.

People of Brazil, all of this you have seen with your own eyes. You have heard their blasphemy and heard their lies debunked for the falsehoods they are. You now have the choice to bring positive change to Brazil, or to leave your country, YOUR country, in the hands of these reactionary fools who's arguments are empty, who's ideology is empty, and who have offered nothing new or good for the Brazilian people.

-

ooc: read the pertinent section again Teekaj, you clearly see the word veto as the second power of the Leader. Oh, and most of the yea's have yet to come online so the tally may change yet methinks ;)
 
As the shaman I believe that teekaj merely misspoke and meant that we should not force people to convert but let them follow any religion they wish which is a belief that I personaly agree with. I would also like to remind Jehoshua calling blasphemy is not your position and that you should not attempt to mislead people as such.
 
I believe that teekaj merely misspoke and meant that we should not force people to convert but let them follow any religion they wish.

This is fallacy. There is only one correct belief, and that is the belief that is currently already uniform among Brazilians that, while in the future will be improved through our growing understanding of nature and perfected, is the closest form of The Truth than any other belief can be.

To believe that another religion is closer to the Truth than our own is fallacy, incorrect, dangerous, and heretical.

While we can't force one to believe, we can reward those who follow the correct path.
 
Your charity, although blessed, has blinded you to his darker nature it seems to me good shaman. For the context of his words was the proposals assertion that the Emperor should choose the religion of state. This has nothing at all to do with the idea of forced conversion and entirely deals with the essential recognition of truth by our people. Teekaj's comments, no matter how much he may seek to deny it post fact, reveal a dangerous impiety and an element within the social democratic party's ideology that is fundamentally against the ultimate dominion of the gods.
 
Top Bottom