Brave New Realpolitik

[Terran Empress]

After insulting my former party and my ideology do you really think I would join you, even if they were shared.

The Intelligent and Learned should be in power, however a council of elected scientists, and engineers, should be the one to lead us. Not some immortal emperor. While it is true that I am also an immortal I wish to look after the freedom of our people, and see them prosper in a glorious age of Science and Reason.

Regarding my name, I have no problem with a hereditary monarchy, so long as their power is extremely limited, I can agree to their proposal of an emperor, so long as the Dissolve Government power is checked very carefully, that gives the Emperor an insane amount of power, which if not checked will make it so that only the Emperor's cronies and puppets will be in power.

Again do not believe the lies that Jehoshua throws out, he only seeks to undermine Brazil's true potential, and see Brazil run under his Iron Fist. Science and Reason must be our guiding light in the centuries to come.

For Science!

 

[christos200]

Mr. Terran, we have been ideological allies, and I can assure that you that Mr. Jehoshua accepts our proposal that the most wise and intelligent should rule and that science can be used without losing our tradition. So, I call you to join our party.

 

[dot80]

Democracy is Absolute as you say, thus who are you to deny the will of the people if they vote for the parties that have clearly proposed the establishment of Empire in their policy outlines? Likewise the absolute nature of democracy means the TABP has a democratic and inviolate right to uphold autocracy, and legislate against democratic republicanism and its ideals if it is voted into power! Thus according to the rules the TABP's policies are perfectly legitimate, and are absolutely lawful since democracy, being absolute, allows for the implementation of undemocratic forms of government and policy if a party holding such policies is elected into office and has the peoples democratic mandate.

However as to the "dissolve government" power in the Emperor section, I contest that it is not anti-democratic (in any sense of the word), and does not require amendment since the dissolution is immediately followed by new elections under the proposal (for prime minister or Governor, depending on the government being dissolved) which of course are entirely independent affairs. The whole point of the Emperor having the power as described furthermore is to provide a check and balance in the event a government goes to hell and starts ruining the nation. Requiring consensus for the Emperor to dissolve parliament would do defeat the purpose. This combined with the obvious fact that the rules ensure the TABP has an absolute right to freely implement any policies it wants if it is elected (as I said) make me reluctant to change, seeing as there is no rule-based imperative for me to do so and its not anti-democratic to begin with (the Governer General can dissolve parliament in Australia along similar lines, are you calling Australia undemocratic?).

The whole point of a Realpolitik is that parties vie and try to win votes so that their party can be in control of the government. Right now you may be able to scrape enough votes to become emperor, but down the line when you are trying to dissolve governments you define as "going to hell" it is all going to seem much less democratic. Without some kind of outside approval method every call for a dissolving of the government will be scrutinized to see if it falls in line with with the requirement for democracy and the spirit of the realpolitik by threat of GM veto which is all powerful.

 

[Jehoshua]

On the contrary good sir I have not in the slightest insulted your ideology, and I have only stated the truth when I noted that your party has dissolved. Indeed if you reflect upon my words they point out precisely that our views on right governance are fundamentally the same! Your former party advocated rule by intellectuals, the TABP advocates the benevolent rule of an immortal Emperor, with immortal and competent statesmen under him noting that immortals due to the immense wisdom and knowledge that comes with endless time are precisely the archetypes of the intellectual men, the wise men, the knowledgable men, you advocates should preferentially hold governance.

You agree also to the importance of tradition, even if you perhaps misunderstood the TABP's position regarding its relationship to progress, which I of course outlined just moment ago. You also agree upon the importance of a strong military to defend against, and project our knowledge and civilisation to the savages. All these things we agree upon, and indeed you even now make it clear that you agree in principle to the self-evident need within Brazil for an Emperor! be it that you outrageously suggest the Emperor under our proposal would have too much power, when if a government is dissolved (a rare event) the Emperor would have no power over the subsequent election.

Considering these things, and wisely putting aside the understandable distress of your former parties recent internal squabbles, is it not obvious that the TABP is the party with the most in common with your stated ideals? Is it not obvious that you, and Brazil, have the most to gain if you would, using your reason and intellect, join the TABP family in its great work for the benefit of Brazil? Considering the concordance of our positions on most matters it seems to me that your opposition to us is primarily based on nothing other than insubstantial phantasms of imagination, something which I hope I have now disabused you of in the hope that your not inconsiderable talents may be used for the good of the nation, rather than merely as a prop for the reactionaries of the Social Democrats.

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The whole point of a Realpolitik is that parties vie and try to win votes so that their party can be in control of the government

And nothing in my proposal changes that in the slightest, intentionally so btw. Elections will still occur (and indeed occur immediately after any dissolution, so the dissolved government could easily be restored if that's what the people want) the fundamentals remain unscathed. The entire question of "democraticness" to you, seems to me to be veering very close to an arbitrary definition instead of an objective one (which I could easily apply to every assassination that occurs, is it democratic that a non-elected person becomes president after the unfortunate passing of the numero uno? Indeed if its non-democratic for a non-elected person to become president, my proposal becomes MORE democratic because it requires elections immediately after a dismissal to secure the reinstallation/replacement of the government in the event of trauma rather than simple devolution down the line of power).

Considering this and the actual meaning of the word, there is really only one objective definition, ergo that a government is elected via the democratic method, by popular vote. The reform I outlined maintains that principle, and so by the only extant objective criterion available for democracy it ticks all the boxes. As such I really don't see why you feel the need to restrict the possibilities particularly considering the (still extant) absence of any rule based objection to the policy that would justify a revision/undue intervention in player engagement with the game. Coming down to things, its really your personal vision (and my obstinancy in contesting it, I'm sorry but I'm stubborn ) of what "democracy" entails, that is informing this discussion at present. I understand of course that from your own experiences and background you have a particular understanding of what is "democratic", but surely you must understand that this is a subjective view and hardly sufficient for defining a rule-based game platform?

 

[Teekaj2]

Speech:

Teekaj stands on a stage in front of the new monument. The crowd is murmuring with the news of the new autocrat party and Terrian's fit of forgetting he was immortal

Citizens of Rio, brothers and sisters, we have gathered here today to dedicate this monument to the gods and our ancestors. They are watching over us, applauding our adulation of their traditions, but balking at the idea of the death of truly elected government. Who are these autocrats? How are they better than you or I? Yes, they are immortals, but so am I, I share their curse. But I lack the hubris or the delusions to say that I am better then the common man. For it is you: the mortals who have the real power here. And I for one wish to keep it that way. This is not a speech about politics; this is a speech about a way of life of the people of our great nation.

Though as things are want to do in this day and age, politics must come in to all things, And I must address it. People of Brazil, I beg you. Vote not for any of these greed filled and power hungry Autocrats, vote for anyone else, be it me, you, or even a goat, just for the love of the gods and Brazil, do not vote for the Autocrats. Your ancestors and the gods are watching you Brazil, and they are begging you not to do anything you will regret after you join them.

I am also announcing my candidacy for chief of Rio in the next election. I will give orders regarding the training of the next group after a brief discussion with my associates.


Thank you, and may the gods bless Brazil. Teekaj walks of stage.

 

[dot80]

A new immortal has joined our nation and has made a proposal. Backed by two parties, the Brazilian Imperialist Party and the Traditionalist Autocratic Party of Brazil (TAPB), it has come to a vote.

The proposal:

IMPERIAL REFORM ACT (Platform for Reform upheld by the TAPB)

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Emperor: (Veto, Dissolve Government, Approve Decree, Choose State Religion), The Emperor is the leader of the nation. Being immortal he shall remain in power eternally until either accident or untimely death necessitates the ascendance of a new Immortal Emperor. Succession is determined by a secret list of three successors in order of primacy established by the Emperor of the day.

It is the Emperors job to protect the traditions of the nation, and ward against abuse of political power as a check and balance on elected political leaders. The Emperor as such has the veto, and must approve all decrees put in place by the prime minister. The Emperor has the power to dissolve government necessitating new elections in the event he sees undue corruption, or other need. The Emperor also has the right to determine the states official religion (or lack thereof). Upon accession to the throne forfeits membership in any political party, to be resumed after temporary incapacitation via accident or untimely death and the accession of a successor.

Prime Minister: (Sets Agenda, Removal of Lower Offices, Diplomat, Decrees, Spies, Technology) It is his job to set the course the country will go in over the next few sessions, and he maintains administrative rights over the other ministers to help enforce his agenda. A Decree is an order that overrides an order made by a minister or governor, and it requires support from 2/3 of the total governors and ministers. Finally the Prime Minister acts as head diplomat, making decisions in all cases of foreign affairs.

Is elected by popular vote.

General (War Chief) (Combat Units) The General directly controls the army/navy/air force to protect the nation from foreign threats. He maintains control over all non-civilian units. Appointed by Prime Minister

Steward (Bartermaster) (Workers, Gold Purchases, Caravans) The Steward is in control of all domestic affairs. He directly controls all workers (excluding archaeologists) and their orders. He controls Great Engineers, Great Scientists, and Great Merchants. With approval of the Prime minister, he makes gold purchases. Finally, he has power over where caravans/cargo ships are stationed and who they trade with. Appointed by Prime Minister

Priest (Shaman) (Social Policies, Great Works, Faith Purchases) The Priest is in charge of all culture and faith. He chooses the Social Policy. He makes faith purchases, and controls any unit purchased with faith. He controls Great Artists, Great Writers, Great Musicians, and Great Prophets, and Archeologists. Finally, he chooses Religious beliefs (not the actual religion). Appointed by Prime Minister

Governor(s) (Chief) (Build Orders, Citizen Management) The Governors control build orders and citizen management in cities. Is elected by popular vote in governorate.

Please vote yea or nay. If it passes we would have an election for the new government. If it fails we would keep the current government.

 

[Teekaj2]

I vote NAY, and call on my fellow freedom supporting immortals to support me.

 

[Tycho]

Speech:

Fellow citizens and people of Brazil. My compatriots, my comrades, my fellows in arms here; we stand on the precipice of a brand new future ahead of us, with prosperity and peaceful ambitions paving the road ahead of us. While the Technocratic Party has been disbanded and Terran Emperor has joined us, I would like to say that it is a sad day for Brazil that such a forward thinking party had to be disbanded and fall to pieces; it was a bold set of ideas that would have energized and made Brazil even grander than it is today, but I and other members of the Social Democratic League of Brasilia welcome our new friend aboard on the platform, and we stand ready to listen to the ideas and the thoughts that he has about advancing forward.

While this goes on, I would like to update all the people on what goes on; the Social Democrats, by our very ideology, oppose the remarks by the leader of the Traditional Autocratic Party of Brazil. What he put forth into writing as to his plans shows that he does not support liberty, but would rather have the government consolidated under one authority and allow the Emperor (which would undoubtedly be himself) to seize power by abolishing positions of power and taking said power in order to rule the nation under an iron fist! We had many talks earlier about Brazil turning into a one party state, but what does it become when the "Emperor" of our nation assumes total control of the government by abolishing the Prime Minister's office and dissolving the government when the Emperor sees fit. We cannot, and should not allow such a thing to pass and come into power, even if it is cloaked in the veil of "traditions".

Stand beside of me, citizens of Brazil, in opposing this Imperial Reform Act. The Imperialist Party and the Traditional Autocrats seek to control you and will dissolve the government if we do not work with them in this or if they decide that what the rest of the administration is doing is not what they want. We must stand, strong and united, as a front against this tyrannical act that would surely mean the end of all liberties and meaningful political decisions in Brazil if it is passed, so that we may create a better future for ourselves, our children, and our descendants as well. Stand united, stand strong, stand together with your family, your friends, your neighbors, your fellow countrymen in opposing this Reform Act which would only destroy what we have worked towards so far.

Peace, liberty, prosperity, democracy. Such is the way of life of Brazil.

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OOC: What if the vote comes to a stalemate right here for the Reform Act, dot?

 

[Tycho]

I vote NAY on the Imperial Reform Act.

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: I haven't proposed it just yet (as a proposition for vote), its a prospective proposal that would be made in the event the TABP came to power. Ergo its a policy platform as indicated in the brackets beside the title.... That's said, could you explain how this vote would work in both events (failure, success), if that is clarified perhaps this confusion can slide and the vote proceed as you have indicated.

 

[Marcher Jovian]

Nay! If the emperor becomes unfit to rule we must be able to elect him outin favor of a better party!

 

[christos200]

I vote Yes.

 

[Teekaj2]

Ooc: Consider this a "polling opportunity" to see how we'll your policies would go over.

 

[dot80]

ooc: I haven't proposed it just yet (as a proposition for vote), its a prospective proposal that would be made in the event the TABP came to power. Ergo its a policy platform as indicated in the brackets beside the title.... That's said, could you explain how this vote would work in both events (failure, success), if that is clarified perhaps this confusion can slide and the vote proceed as you have indicated.

Whether your party is in power or not, it would still come to popular vote. Any amendment to the structure of the government requires public support, it isn't within the power of any or all the elected officials to change the structure of the government. Nothing would change between now and if your part is elected 2 sessions from now. As stated in the above post, if adopted there would be a new election under the government you have designed, if rejected we would continue with our current government. If the vote comes to a stalemate we would continue with the current government.

 

[Marcher Jovian]

As the Shaman of Brazil it is my job to choose what social policies our government will have. The time has now come to choose a new one. The new policy will be Legalism as no one, not even some emperor, is above the law.

 

[cpm4001]

I vote NAY to the proposal.
Speech:
Teekaj and Tycho have outlined to you the reasons for which we must not allow the Autocrats to take command by their new Constitution, and I am here to elaborate upon those points.
The TAPB claims their new model of government will lead to a stronger Brazil. This is a blatant falsehood - it can and will serve no purpose other than to result in a TAPB-supported dictator running our great nation. As the dictator will have absolute power, the people will no longer have a voice in their government. This can only lead to disaster.
The platform claims that the Shaman, Bartermaster, etc. will be nominated by an elected Prime Minister. While this sounds good on paper, I ask, 'What is to stop the Emperor from abolishing the office of Prime Minister and assuming total control of the government?' In short, the answer is that there is nothing to stop this from occurring. It is obvious that the TAPB wishes to abolish the rights of the people and assume total control of the government.
However, it appears as though the Brazilian populace desires a leader to help instill in us a sense of national unity. To that end, we in the Social Democratic Party of Brasilia propose the establishment of a form of monarchy. Unlike the TAPB, however, we feel this is best served not by appointing a hereditary emperor, but instead by electing a monarch to serve a short term. This monarch will have few powers, and those he or she does have will be carefully regulated by the Constitution we are currently drawing up. The real power will remain with the people of Brazil and their duly elected officials.
We of the SDPB welcome with open arms Terran Emperor as an ally against the Autocrats, and look forward to a long alliance.
Please, people of Brazil, do not let the Autocrats take command! We must maintain a democratic governmental structure for the good of our people! Thank you, and good day.

 

[Jehoshua]

ooc: fair enough, let the vote proceed then. Oh and to my naysayers may I suggest you read the proposals detail before responding. Making factually fallacious statements only to have the pointed out as such is the kiss of death in politics

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IC: I obviously vote Yea to the proposal

To counter Mr Tycho's statements. I would first like to applaud him for recognising the positive forward thinking vitality of the TABP's policies. As I noted the Technocrats fundamental policy platform regarding rule by the wise, tradition and the military are practically identical in substance and so to praise those policies is to praise our policies in these areas, and for this you have our gratitude.

Secondly, to deal with the absurd components of your statement. Your statements that the TABP will somehow quash the liberty of the Brazilian citizen is based on no facts whatsoever. Indeed as is clear from even a cursory reading of the Imperial Reform Act itself, the democratic traditions of Brazil are preserved in accordance with our respect for tradition, and in accordance with our notion of a hermeneutic of continuity between past, present and future. Where the autocratic notion comes in to this reform bill is, obviously in the person of the Emperor. However even here, with the contested notion of government dismissal, Mr Tycho refers not to facts, but scaremongers and peddles in half-truths and even outright lies. He screeches like a wizened old mother in law that an Emperor would assume total control and abolish positions of power COMPLETELY IGNORING that the proposition, precisely to avoid this possibility, explicitly ensures that the office of Emperor would have no such authority. The Emperor would not be like the current president, who is effectively an elected dictator without check or balance, but rather a check and balance in himself on that office (which would be renamed prime minister) in that the power of veto would be vested in the imperial office, the government could be dismissed if it abused its power (with the proposal explicitly noting that an election must immediately follow), that the Emperor must approve extraordinary decrees initiated by the Prime Minister, and that only the Emperor can approve the religion of state, as befits his role as pater patriae, the father and moral guide of the nation. These powers alone the reform act invests in the Emperor and no others, and thus the scaremongering of tyranny are utterly, completely, absolutely baseless, with this being obvious to anyone of even a modicum of intelligence.

Since Mr Tycho, and those who parrot his line, are not however unintelligent (or else he wouldn't be Chief and the social democrats would not be in power) the only rational conclusion for his outburst is that he desires the preservation of his practically unchecked power. He does not want a check and balance who could curtail his own plans should they impinge upon the liberty and freedom of the Brazilian people, or erode our national traditions of elected government. In short the Social Democrats, being the retrograde ossified and reactionary party that it is, is opposing this positive change precisely because it ensures that the very potentiality of tyranny they rail against in the most blatantly idiotic utterances ever spoken to the Brazilian people (one wonders if they can read the proposal!) is effectively checked, and that you, brothers and sisters, would be effectively protected from the depredations of bickering politicians fighting not for your benefit, but for their own selfish purposes.

Thus to conclude this statement (Im sure there will be many, the reactionaries do love making themselves hoarse) I would urge the Brazilian people to actually read the Imperial Reform Proposal. As is clear in the texts themselves, the Emperor would have no power to do what Tycho is suggesting he could do, whatsoever. The Social Democrats argument thus is completely and utterly fallacious, ridiculous and self-evidently absurd. I would also note here that I completely approve of the choice of legalism by our eminent shaman, despite his mis-association with the social democrats. Legalism is the first step on the path to codifying monarchy in our social traditions and thus a positive step towards a traditionalist autocratic society.

 

[christos200]

 

[Marcher Jovian]

You claim that the emperor will stop corruption, however what happens if the emperor himself becomes corrupted? He can't be elected out of his position and could stop any decree that would remove him from power. He could even dissolve the government until only the people that bribe him win! Your proposol even states that he could disolve the government on any other of his needs, which could be his own greed. The emperor is as not you say "a check and balance" but an uncontrolled figure with no check or balance and the ability to make elections at a moment's notice!

 

[Jehoshua]

Considering the Emperor has no direct administrative power, a suboptimal Emperor is not a detriment to the people as much as a corrupt prospective dictator and his cronies who feel the need to falsify clearly written documents and make up lies to advance their position, and fearmonger on remote and exceedingly unlikely possibilities instead of dealing on the solid and assured ground of the normative, where of course they are shown for the clowns they truly are.

However aside from that not insignificant fact, and noting that considering the Emperor is one person, and a person who would be chosen democratically and with great care (with mental instability as such being carefully guarded against). An Emperor who sees the need to dissolve governments constantly would be self-evidently wrong, and insodoing he would undermine his own position and prestige. An Emperor would effectively bring about his end if he were to do such a thing with any regularity. Thus considering an Emperor intent on influence and power would not be so stupid (since such action would destroy what such an Emperor would most desire), and insanity is effectively hedged against by the selection process and the consequent succession protocol, It is safe to say methinks that what you are suggesting would most certainly not occur, save of course if the social democrats intend on insinuating a loon into the position in an effort to maintain their current unchecked power.