[BtS] Diversica

[mamba]

A stealthy update, huh?

Yes, I took it offline about one hour after I had uploaded it and uploaded the fixed version when it was ready.

BTW, while browsing through all the new stuff in World Builder I noticed that German Marine displays infamous “three red blobs” (in WB, this is NOT civilopedia only). Not idea what would happen if someone actually builds the unit.

Could you download the button fix, apply it and see if that fixes it ?

In game the same thing would happen, you would see 3 blobs

Concerning recent discussion I second Ulhan on subject of national flags – in some cases it makes more sense than others, but overall effect is somehow related to fotball crowd.

Oh well, I just made a roman flag today anyway as I might split Rome and Italy into two separate civilizations. In any case, it now will be needed as the new Bakuel roman units wouldn't pass as italian units anyway

There seems to be serious shortage of modern armor; I wonder if distibuting existing ones among all the civs (just as you did with regular tanks) wouldn’t look better than everyone riding an Abrams.

I saw (within your mod) some T-72/T-80 in various color schemes, M60, Merkava, danrell recently released some recolored versions (together with a beautiful Dreadnought battleship). The same goes for gunships. Well, just a thought.

This might be true, but there is a shortage of modern armors (and gunships) in general, there are a lot more tanks available. For tanks, I had plenty for civ specific units, I usually used one of the more advanced type as the one for the civ which was building it and the older tanks as tanks for other civs. For the latter I tried to give them to civilizations which used the tanks (even if they did not build them), or at least those whose territories they operated in (sometimes I did deviate from this though), but as long as there are so few modern armors I prefered to keep them with the nations which build them and only distribute the excess units (just like I did with tanks).

Ah, and German WWII infantry by bernie14:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=5992

Ok, you win, infantry and SAM infantry will be added from there, not so sure about marine though, I like the new one from Germany redux better.

One real balancing issue with Poland: it seems that your version of Poland is based on the Warlords version of “Polish Empire” mod, with hussar replacing knights.

It is based on the BtS version with hussar replacing knight (version 0.8) I will look into using hussar as cuirassier (as is now done in the Polish Empire version 1.1).

Well, that’s so much of me trying to be helpful. Once again, thank you for your hard (and much appreciated) work.

You are welcome, feedback is always appreciated.

 

[Tirse]

Could you download the button fix, apply it and see if that fixes it ?

It doesn’t for me (I always try to have all updates before reporting any errors... saves frustration).

Oh well, I just made a roman flag today anyway as I might split Rome and Italy into two separate civilizations. In any case, it now will be needed as the new Bakuel roman units wouldn't pass as italian units anyway

Would you perhaps consider doing the same (that is, removing modern national markings) for Celts and Vikings? Any “right” to claim celtic (viking) heritage could easily be contested between several modern nations... picking one like that seems kind of arbitrary.

as long as there are so few modern armors I prefered to keep them with the nations which build them and only distribute the excess units (just like I did with tanks).

OK, I get the idea. The only problem is that manufacturing modern tanks is a thing few countries can afford, and even those that do so, usually base their projects on existing one (thus so many “national” variants of Soviet T-72 line). Others simply buy stuff. The way you put it, most civs will be forever stuck with default Abrams (which, I believe, is actually unique to the US). Oh well. With new models appearing almost daily, sooner or later something is bound to appear. At least we have all the mech. infantry to choose from (have you seen new BMP-3 from snafusmith? Amazing detail).

Ok, you win, infantry and SAM infantry will be added from there, not so sure about marine though, I like the new one from Germany redux better.

Ah, so do I. We were discussing regular infantry back there...

It is based on the BtS version with hussar replacing knight (version 0.8) I will look into using hussar as cuirassier (as is now done in the Polish Empire version 1.1).

1.1 version also has some new models – “WWII style” cavalry and Mi-17 “gunship” which, while doesn’t really look much like a gunship, may be worth considering given general shortage of helicopter models.

Do you have any plans to work with danrell’s “Dreadnought” model? It would look a bit dated next to all the “Iowa” and “Yamato” battleships, but then, many contemporary battleships looked dated next to them. Again, amazing detail.

And last question: any chances for asioasioasio’s Maus tank to make it into the mod? Yes, I know it was unique to Germany and generally rarer than frog’s hair, but it looks different enaugh, and the model itself is IMO stunning:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4328
Huh, this came as more of a request than a question, but still...

Hope you can make some use of all my rambling...

 

[mamba]

It doesn’t for me (I always try to have all updates before reporting any errors... saves frustration).

They work for me, please check that the definition is :

			<NIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Germany/Units/Marine_Germany/marines.nif</NIF>
			<KFM>Art/Units/Marine/Marines.kfm</KFM>
			<SHADERNIF>Modules/Custom Civilizations/Germany/Units/Marine_Germany/marines_fx.nif</SHADERNIF>

Would you perhaps consider doing the same (that is, removing modern national markings) for Celts and Vikings? Any “right” to claim celtic (viking) heritage could easily be contested between several modern nations... picking one like that seems kind of arbitrary.

If I can come up with something which is sufficiently modern and somehow representative anyway (ideas welcome). Alternatively you could just plug in the BadRonald Flags for those two. (the Viking probably is sufficiently modern, not so sure about the Celt one).

OK, I get the idea. The only problem is that manufacturing modern tanks is a thing few countries can afford, and even those that do so, usually base their projects on existing one (thus so many “national” variants of Soviet T-72 line). Others simply buy stuff. The way you put it, most civs will be forever stuck with default Abrams (which, I believe, is actually unique to the US). Oh well. With new models appearing almost daily, sooner or later something is bound to appear. At least we have all the mech. infantry to choose from (have you seen new BMP-3 from snafusmith? Amazing detail).

Yes, added that today as the new russian mech infantry, the current one now is being reused by Ottoman and Korea

1.1 version also has some new models – “WWII style” cavalry and Mi-17 “gunship” which, while doesn’t really look much like a gunship, may be worth considering given general shortage of helicopter models.

I rejected it because it is just a plain helicopter, not a gunship. I went with Zervers Poland industrial units over the original cavalery.

Do you have any plans to work with danrell’s “Dreadnought” model? It would look a bit dated next to all the “Iowa” and “Yamato” battleships, but then, many contemporary battleships looked dated next to them. Again, amazing detail.

I am thinking about adding Dreadnoughts as a new ship class, there are several civilization specific Dreadnought models already, but they all look too dated for a battleshp imo (and way too modern for ironclads, the gap in between is just too big).

And last question: any chances for asioasioasio’s Maus tank to make it into the mod? Yes, I know it was unique to Germany and generally rarer than frog’s hair, but it looks different enaugh, and the model itself is IMO stunning:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=4328
Huh, this came as more of a request than a question, but still...

I went with the Kingtiger over the Maus as the german Panzer replacement because it is more widely known, was more widely used and imo is just the better choice. Since we essentially have two Germanys now with HRE, I might give them some excess german units - never thought about that before, but they obviously have no way of getting modern units otherwise.

 

[avain]

I went with the Kingtiger over the Maus as the german Panzer replacement because it is more widely known, was more widely used and imo is just the better choice.

Considering the fact that only one semi-working prototype of a Maus was built and a couple of others started - and even the one that was 'working' couldn't handle it's own weight with its engines, let alone with a cannon attached (the type they wanted). Nevertheless, impressive model, and I think it would be better suited as a prototype wonder-unit or something along those lines...

 

[Tirse]

I finally got around to implementing your fixes for persian rifleman and german marine; both units work now. Thank you.

Yes, added that today as the new russian mech infantry, the current one now is being reused by Ottoman and Korea

Ooh, that was fast. Great. Who got the other one (I mean, the other color version)? I remember seeing some number of identical BRDM’s among russian arms users, this is a chance for one of them...
I must say that many of your current lines (russian, german, chinese, ottoman and japanese among my favorites) are really, really well done – not only the models are among the best aviable, but each era has a definite, separate flavour (some achievement seeing how most modellers concentrate on ancient/medieval units). Great job.

I went with Zervers Poland industrial units over the original cavalery.

Ah, Zerver's set. Grenadier, rifleman and cavalry match up nicely, but am I the only one thinking the musketman looks weird? Not only the "shield and musket" combo is unheard of, but entire model, with that furry red lining, reminds me of Santa with a gun... but perhaps it's just me.

I am thinking about adding Dreadnoughts as a new ship class, there are several civilization specific Dreadnought models already, but they all look too dated for a battleshp imo (and way too modern for ironclads, the gap in between is just too big).

The gap is indeed terrible, as due to range limitations, Civ4 ironclads really belong to age of sail (apart from coastal defense, frigates still do all the serious work). This game basically negates the existance of coal powered navies. Still, is the “too dated for battleship” part also true under BtS? In Warlords, “battleship” represented about every large, non-carrier warship from the end of 19th century to modern times, and was still around when stealth bombers and modern armor appeared. With introduction of missile cruisers this is no longer the case, so “battleship” represents – more or less, as the “ironclad gap” is still there – first half of 20th century. That makes a diffrence; historically, “golden age” of battleships was around the first world war, around mid 1940’s, with the rise of carriers, they were practically done for as “main” ships. Some of the WWII battleships actually took active part in WWI. Probably because of the game’s initial setup the default battleship model represents one of the most advanced ones ever built, but IMO with the new missile cruisers there’s no more reason for this.

Anyway, please compare this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7275
and this (note it’s modernised 1939 version):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HMS_Renown_(1939)_profile_drawing.png
Fewer gun turrets on HMS Renown, but still...

(Whoa! Forgive me if I’m too persistent... )

I went with the Kingtiger over the Maus as the german Panzer replacement (...) Since we essentially have two Germanys now with HRE, I might give them some excess german units - never thought about that before, but they obviously have no way of getting modern units otherwise.

That's what I had in mind. Personaly I’d rather see this as a regular tank/modern armor (long shot, but since you have M60 variants as regular tanks...) replacement for some “forgotten” civ than enirely new unit (from what I’ve seen, new units work OK in scenarios, but not so much in epic games... game system’s too much of “rock, paper, scissors” for that, difficult to put in something new in a way that makes sense). Of course this goes against historical accuracy but then, “historical accuracy” in regard to Byzantine or Incan tanks is something of a contradiction anyway...

 

[mamba]

Ooh, that was fast. Great. Who got the other one (I mean, the other color version)? I remember seeing some number of identical BRDM’s among russian arms users, this is a chance for one of them...
I must say that many of your current lines (russian, german, chinese, ottoman and japanese among my favorites) are really, really well done – not only the models are among the best aviable, but each era has a definite, separate flavour (some achievement seeing how most modellers concentrate on ancient/medieval units). Great job.

Thanks, so far both use the same green non-soviet skin. There also is a desert skin, but I do not yet use it, there are also plenty of Mig 21 skins for various countries, maybe I should add those, while the model is always the same, at least the look is different.

Ah, Zerver's set. Grenadier, rifleman and cavalry match up nicely, but am I the only one thinking the musketman looks weird? Not only the "shield and musket" combo is unheard of, but entire model, with that furry red lining, reminds me of Santa with a gun... but perhaps it's just me.

I agree, the shield is weird.

The gap is indeed terrible, as due to range limitations, Civ4 ironclads really belong to age of sail (apart from coastal defense, frigates still do all the serious work). This game basically negates the existance of coal powered navies. Still, is the “too dated for battleship” part also true under BtS?

yes, battleships to me are WW2 battleships, dreadnoughts are around WW1, granted, these wars followed soon after another so there may not be a real need for a WW1 battleship, but for something which comes along somewhat earlier, but the models are WW1 battleships to me.

Anyway, please compare this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7275
and this (note it’s modernised 1939 version):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HMS_Renown_(1939)_profile_drawing.png
Fewer gun turrets on HMS Renown, but still...

while I do like danrells dreadnoght skin, it looks to modern to me, a lot more modern than the original skin, so I will stick with that (or maybe add both for some diversity). I agree, with that skin the dreadnought is very similar to a battleship.

That's what I had in mind. Personaly I’d rather see this as a regular tank/modern armor (long shot, but since you have M60 variants as regular tanks...) replacement for some “forgotten” civ than enirely new unit (from what I’ve seen, new units work OK in scenarios, but not so much in epic games...

I certainly won't add it as a new unit type, only as a new graphics, there are some nice german models which do not yet get used, so they could go into HRE. Still not sure whether I will use the Maus as their tank (Leo 1 will be their modern armor), there are several german tanks to choose from

 

[Bospor]

I downloaded this mod yesterday and it is fantastic! Thanks for all your work. I did find one bug though. I was playing for the Russians and if I wanted to build the horse archer, I would always crash to desktop. At first there was not even an icon of the horse archer in the build section, just a name. Latter in the game the icon appeared, but still would crash once you click on it.
About suggesting a new unit for the mod. Have you seen a new Russian "iron clad" called Bronenosets? Check out the units section, it's at the top section somewhere. Looks awsome.

 

[mamba]

Did you download the button fix on the first page ? That should fix the issue with the button not being displayed (not sure if it also fixes the crash).

I know about the Bronenosets, not sure what to make of it though, it looks a lot more modern than the regular ironclad I guess I will add it eventually anyway, haven't really made up my mind yet though.

 

[Bospor]

Please add the bronenosets. It is perfectly good for a timeframe! Just between the large sail ships and modern destroyers! That vanilla iron clad is so gay! Please use the bronenosets at least for European nations.

 

[mamba]

It may be gay, but it is pretty accurate.

The bronenosets fall somewhere in between ironclads and dreadnoughts (but at that time ships were constantly evolving anyway, the ironclads lasted from 1860 to 1890 and the dreadnoughts picked up from there until WW1, after WW1 both carriers and battleships got ever stronger / bigger).

 

[Uhlan]

Hello Mamba,

Big fan of your mod. I have mentioned this a few times...

However, I'm wondering, is it possible to say, add "Carters 32 civ map" to your mod? Be nice to play on his earth map, with starting locations.

I'm not a modder myself, and consider myself severely handicapped in that regard.

I have a high-end computer, so I THINK I should be able to run it without too many difficulties or slowdowns.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[mamba]

You will need to do the following :

- copy the PrivateMaps directory to the Diversica directory
- copy the Assets/CvGameCoreDLL.dll to Diversica/Assets
- copy Assets/XML/GameInfo to Diversica/Assets/XML/GameInfo (that dir does not exist yet, personally I would copy all files but CIV4VictoryInfo.xml as that is changing victory conditions to better suit this gigantic map and would make a domination victory too easy on the 'regular' map sizes)
- copy Assets/XML/Interface to Diversica/Assets/XML/Interface (that dir does not exist yet)
- merge the Assets/XML/Text files (or create new ones with just Carter's new texts)

Alternatively, you could download this

 

[Wolfshanze]

Please add the bronenosets. It is perfectly good for a timeframe! Just between the large sail ships and modern destroyers! That vanilla iron clad is so gay! Please use the bronenosets at least for European nations.

It may be gay, but it is pretty accurate.

The bronenosets fall somewhere in between ironclads and dreadnoughts (but at that time ships were constantly evolving anyway, the ironclads lasted from 1860 to 1890 and the dreadnoughts picked up from there until WW1, after WW1 both carriers and battleships got ever stronger / bigger).

Actually the Bronenosets fall in a very specific time-frame, and a very specific design layout that was pretty much a world-standard at the time that is very easy to nail-down.

The Bronenoset falls quite-squarley in the "Pre-Dreadnought" time-frame of 1890-1906 naval capital ship building. By 1890 almost all navies around the world had come to the consensus of design that capital ships had four large caliber guns in two turrets and secondary and tritiary batteries in addition. This design was stuck-to almost like glue for nearly two decades and the naval battle of Tsushima was fought with these style ships. The evolution of naval design changed after Tsushima, when the "all-big-gun-ship" evolved into what we now know and call "Dreadnoughts"... which began to arive on the scene in 1906 and revolutionized naval designs there-after.

In Civ-4 game-terms, the Bronenoset would not fall into the "Ironclad" time-frame at all... but rather after Ironclads and before Dreadnoughts (ie: Pre-Dreadnoughts) of 1890-1906.

The Ironclad icon used in default Civ4-terms is simply an "Ironclad Gunboat"... more specifically an "Ironclad River Gunboat"... which is why it's limited to coastal waters, they weren't seaworthy.

There was considerable development of true ocean-going Ironclads from about 1854 to 1890... most of which were simply frigate-like vessels with armor plating, and dual-drive systems (sail + steam). General Matt has already made two excellent Civ4-unit icons for these types of units, which (if one prefers) could be used in-place or in-addition to the ironclad gunboat already in the game. The Bronenoset does not belong in the Ironclad time-frame, as by 1890, naval evolution had placed the Bronenoset in a class much superior to earlier ocean-going ironclads... ie: the "Pre-Dreadnoughts" I already explained.

Default Civ4 leaves a LOT of room to play with in naval terms, with Ironclads having a combat value of 12 and Battleships having a combat value of 40. There's plenty of room to add ocean-going ironclads, pre-dreadnoughts and true dreadnoughts in-between ironclad gunboats and battleships (of WWII-design). I've already added many naval classes in-between ironclads and battleships in my own mod... others should be encouraged to do the same, I just hope they use the right avatars/icons for each class... there's already great work out there to use for these classes.

If one wants the "Bronenoset" in a Civ4 game, it should be classified as a "Pre-Dreadnought" and not anything else (it's not an Ironclad).

This is how I broke-down the values in my own mod... I gave Ironclad-age ships three units as it shows the rapid progression of design changes over the Ironclad years from 1854-1890:

values listed as combat/speed

Ironclad Gunboat - 12/2 (same as default Civ4 "Ironclad")
Ironclad Cruiser - 15/5
Ironclad Battleship - 18/3

Protected Cruiser - 22/5
Pre-Dreadnought - 26/4

Destroyer Escort - 26/6
Dreadnought - 38/5

Destroyer - 30/8
Cruiser - 34/7
Battleship - 42/6 (I bumped combat up 2-points over default Civ4, but it could be left the same)



P.S.
I'm 20-years retired military, and the evolution of naval warfare has been a hobby of mine since the 1970s, so I like to think I have some knowledge in backing-up the history given above.

 

[mamba]

You know a lot about military history it seems (not the first time I noticed this). I agree with everything you said, but in Civ the era from 1890 to 1906 lasts for about 5 turns, so having such a fine differentiation in unit types isn't really helpful imo. It probably is great for a mod which concentrates on that particular century (1860 - 1960) though.

I decided to add the Bronenoset as an ironclad (yes, it does look like it would be ocean going, but it certainly won't), along with some other ironclad ships which would be ocean-going. Not historically accurate, but then Civ itself is not historically accurate and only mods which focus on a particular era could potentially be.

I am also thinking about adding Dreadnoughts, in Regiments they have strength of 34/5 and that is what I will probably use, they then are somewhat stronger (but slower) than Destroyers (30/8) and somewhat weaker than Battleships (40/6).

 

[Wolfshanze]

You know a lot about military history it seems (not the first time I noticed this). I agree with everything you said, but in Civ the era from 1890 to 1906 lasts for about 5 turns, so having such a fine differentiation in unit types isn't really helpful imo. It probably is great for a mod which concentrates on that particular century (1860 - 1960) though.

I decided to add the Bronenoset as an ironclad (yes, it does look like it would be ocean going, but it certainly won't), along with some other ironclad ships which would be ocean-going. Not historically accurate, but then Civ itself is not historically accurate and only mods which focus on a particular era could potentially be.

I am also thinking about adding Dreadnoughts, in Regiments they have strength of 34/5 and that is what I will probably use, they then are somewhat stronger (but slower) than Destroyers (30/8) and somewhat weaker than Battleships (40/6).

Well, if your logic for NOT adding "Pre-Dreadnoughts" is because 1890-1906 "only lasts about 5 turns", then why would you add Dreadnoughts since WWI only lasts four turns and WWII (which tons of units are in) only lasts 6 turns? Your logic on exclusion eludes me.

Also, if I recall correctly, 1890-1906 actually lasts 11 turns in Civ4.

I gave Dreadnoughts 38 because they are NOT "slightly" stronger then destroyers.... that's moronic. Dreadnoughts are indeed battleships and are vastly superior in firepower, tonnage and armor then destroyers... Dreadnoughts were also widely used in WWII even though they were 30 years old. Dreadnoughts are much closer in firepower to battleships then they are destroyers, which is why I would not rate a dreadnought closer in firepower to a destroyer then a battleship like regiments did. Regiments may be a very nice mod, but that doesn't mean everything makes the most sense just cuz other factors are well done.

As for my decision to add the vessels I did, I was more concerned with lapses in both timeline and combat space in Civ4... I could care less if 1890-1906 lasts 11 turns or not, it's a longer timespan then WWII, both in reality and in Civ4 game terms, and frankly the military gap in combat value of "12" vs combat values of "30" and "40" is too huge to leave open.

I based my Civ4 combat values based on as close a proximation to historical combat value as I could (given the constraints of Civ4)... which is why a Dreadnought is closer to a BB then a DD in firepower. I'm sorry, but a WWII destroyer with 5" guns and a few torpedo tubes still doesn't measure up to a Dreadnought with eight 15" guns and an 11-inch thick armor belt (many WWI Dreadnoughts served well in WWII).

You can certainly do whatever you want in your mod (it's YOUR mod after all), but I have a hard time swallowing the use of a 1900s Pre-Dreadnought like the Bronenoset in the role of a coastal-water 1860s Ironclad mode.

Sorry, but the Bronenoset is just not an ironclad... never was, never will be. You seem to contradict yourself when you say you don't want to make a "Pre-Dreadnought" because "historically speaking" it's too small a timeframe to use, yet you'll gladly throw "historically speaking" out the window and use a ship from 40-years into the future as an Ironclad.

GeneralMatt made several nice Ironclad models of the mid to late 1800s... if you want to use Ironclads other then the coastal Ironclad in the game, I suggest you look at his models... if you'd like to use the Bronenoset, I might suggest adding a "Pre-Dreadnought" class vessel... there's certainly room for it in the tech-tree, combat-wise and timeline-wise in the game. The Bronenoset is not an ironclad, dreadnought or battleship... it's quite clearly in the well-defined "Pre-Dreadnought" class of vessels (and it's very ocean-going capable). If you have no intention of adding a Pre-Dreadnought class vessel to your mod, the Bronenoset is better left out of your mod... to anyone that knows better, it's just as silly to use that ship as an Ironclad as using the M1A1 Abrams as a WWII tank.

My two-cents... good luck with further development of your excellent work.

 

[mamba]

I agree,the way I set it up it is pretty much superflous. I am not yet happy with the Dreadnought myself, but put it in like that for the time being.

Ok, assuming I break these down further, I would go with something like this :

• Frigate : requires Chemistry + Astronomy, 8/4/90, upgrades to Ironclad Frigate and Destroyer, regular CIV unit
• Ship of the Line : requires Military Science + Astronomy, 8/3/120, +50% bonus vs. Frigate, upgrades to Ironclad Frigate and Destroyer, regular CIV unit
• Ironclad : requires Steel + Steam Power, 12/2/100, cannot move onto ocean squares, upgrades to Ironclad Frigate and Destroyer, regular CIV unit
• Ironclad Frigate : requires Steam Power + Steel, 18/3/140, upgrades to Destroyer, new unit
• Pre-Dreadnought : requires Railroad + Steam Power, 26/4/170, upgrades to Dreadnought and Battleship, new unit
• Dreadnought : requires Artillery + Railroad, 36/5/210, upgrades to Battleship, new unit
• Destroyer : requires Combustion, 30/8/200, regular CIV unit
• Battleship (requires Industrialism, 40/6/225, regular CIV unit)

For completeness, Privateer and Caravel both can also upgrade to Ironclad Frigate then as they can upgrade to both Frigate and Destroyer in Civ.

Any comments ?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well, this is what I did in my Wolfshanze Mod (v1.x still has older graphics, I'm working on v2.0 with ethnic diversity and better graphics)... anyways, here's the units and their techs as I set them... I looked over the tech tree real hard on this, and this is the best I could come up with to space-out the differant classes in a reasonable fashion... I clumped similar-tech/era ship classes together as requiring the same techs. WWII era cruisers and destroyers come inbetween WWI dreadnoughts and WWII battleships.

As an interesting twist, NO SHIP can upgrade to a Dreadnought... I wanted to "whipe the slate clean" with the advent of the Dreadnought, as historically speaking, entire fleets became useless once the Dreadnought era began and all the navies (even the Royal Navy) had to start-over from scratch... so the biggest ship you can upgrade to from a ship you may have had early in the game is a pre-dreadnought... that's the end of the line for capital ships (Pre-Dreadnoughts can be upgraded to modern cruisers if you like)... but in my mod, Dreadnoughts must be built from scratch.

Here's my tech chart for naval improvements.

values listed as combat/speed - required techs

Ironclad Gunboat - 12/2 - Military Science + Steam Power
Ironclad Cruiser - 15/5 - Steel + Steam Power
Ironclad Battleship - 18/3 - Steel + Steam Power

Protected Cruiser - 22/5 - Combustion + Rifling
Pre-Dreadnought - 26/4 - Combustion + Rifling

Destroyer Escort - 26/6 - Assembly Line + Artillery + Combustion + Physics
Dreadnought - 38/5 - Assembly Line + Artillery + Combustion + Physics

Destroyer - 30/8 - Assembly Line + Artillery + Combustion + Electricity
Cruiser - 34/7 - Assembly Line + Artillery + Combustion + Electricity
Battleship - 42/6 - Industrialism + Artillery + Combustion

Also, the way I have it said, modern cruisers and destroyers are still less-powerful then WWI Dreadnoughts (as it should be), but both are much faster (as it was). This makes using a WWI Dreadnought in WWII still a viable option (as it was).

 

[avain]

As an interesting twist, NO SHIP can upgrade to a Dreadnought...

Hey, Wolfshanze,
some good ideas there, if you allow me to comment:
You should consider the impact of your decisions on the CPU opponent. What do I mean? If Dreadnoughts are built from scratch, will the CPU be able to identify the importance of disbanding its fleet in favor of a new one? Will it know how to do that to remain competitive (with regard to the human player)?

And one other thing: you can consider historical accuracy as the only source to determine unit stats. Alas, as mamba stated, this game is a simplified version of it. So, in its micro universe it makes more sense to design units that fit in comparison to other units/can be countered with counter-units from the same era. Balance is the key here.

Having said these, I myself sometimes(well, more often than not) choose to include units just because I like them/think they'd be historically accurate. I just wanted to list some factors to consider when making a complex mod.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Hey, Wolfshanze,
some good ideas there, if you allow me to comment:
You should consider the impact of your decisions on the CPU opponent. What do I mean? If Dreadnoughts are built from scratch, will the CPU be able to identify the importance of disbanding its fleet in favor of a new one? Will it know how to do that to remain competitive (with regard to the human player)?

If I'm not mistaken, there are several powerful units that just "come out of the blue" on the computer (that can't be upgraded to) and the computer has no problem building them from scratch... I think tanks and all aircraft are "new construction" units that just need to be built (though I will admit I added the ability for cavalry to upgrade to tanks).

As for disbanding old "out of date" units... that's all covered... there are still no dead-end units... several vessels (like pre-dreadnoughts) I allow to upgrade to heavy cruisers and/or destroyers so older fleets can still be usefull, it's just NO CAPITAL SHIP from previous fleets (like a Pre-Dreadnought) can be upgraded to a newer modern capital ship (although upgrading to a more modern medium or small ship is allowed).

What this allows for is a "new" capital-ship building race with the modern era... you can't just have a bunch of older capital ships then upgrade them to new capital ships... you have to rebuild them from scratch (like building a new air force from scratch).

The AI has to play by these same rules, and he can still modernize an older fleet, just not to new modern capital ships like dreadnoughts.

And one other thing: you can consider historical accuracy as the only source to determine unit stats. Alas, as mamba stated, this game is a simplified version of it. So, in its micro universe it makes more sense to design units that fit in comparison to other units/can be countered with counter-units from the same era. Balance is the key here.

Of course this game is a VERY simplified version of history. You can't be detailed in historical accuracy, but at the same time, if you can make something realistic, it's no excuse to not even try if the option is there. For example, I wouldn't use a pre-dreadnought icon to represent an ironclad if I could use a true ironclad icon instead. That's something I can control.

On the other hand, if you REALLY wanted to be accurate, no ship should be upgradeable to another ship... why could you upgrade a trireme to a frigate? Why could you upgrade an ironclad to a pre-dreadnought? Of course, for abstract reasons and gameplay reasons, you allow such things.

We won't even discuss the age-less "Spearman vs Tank" debate... through my own gameplay testing, there's been no serious problem incorporating my idea of "Dreadnoughts cleaning the slate" on naval capital ship fleets. You can still upgrade older fleets, albeit not to capital ships... new capital ships must be built once Dreadnoughts are introduced... I think that works well within the scope and limit(s) of the game.

 

[mamba]

Hey, Wolfshanze,
some good ideas there, if you allow me to comment:
You should consider the impact of your decisions on the CPU opponent. What do I mean? If Dreadnoughts are built from scratch, will the CPU be able to identify the importance of disbanding its fleet in favor of a new one? Will it know how to do that to remain competitive (with regard to the human player)?

The same is true for Battleships in regular civ (I checked before coming up with my upgrade path), so the Dreadnoughts and Pre-Dreadnoughts coming out of nowhere should be fine as well.

And one other thing: you can consider historical accuracy as the only source to determine unit stats. Alas, as mamba stated, this game is a simplified version of it. So, in its micro universe it makes more sense to design units that fit in comparison to other units/can be countered with counter-units from the same era. Balance is the key here.

That is my main problem right now I guess, but when looking at the other units, I didn't necessarily see them as balanced either. Basically the Ship of the Line and Frigate duke it out until the Destroyer and Battleships enter the scene, and these are far superior, making all previous ships obsolete.

I toned down the Ironclad Frigate somewhat (strength of 15 instead of 18) as I considered it too powerful otherwise.

Having said these, I myself sometimes(well, more often than not) choose to include units just because I like them/think they'd be historically accurate. I just wanted to list some factors to consider when making a complex mod.

Have you actually included any new unit types in your mod ? I thought it was all graphical changes.