Build the wall

[Cutlass]

While I agree with everything you wrote... you could just substitute "migrant workers" for "sex work" & the point would remain the same. The solution to both seems to be, IMO: legalize & regulate.

Oddly (US perspective), it's the Republicans who are against doing either one, & the Democrats who can't propose either one without being demonized. The unfortunate fact is that the humane, practical solution, in both cases, is a losing political strategy currently.

In American politics, there's just no votes to be gained by supporting immigration. And many to be lost. And there's no votes to be gained by legalizing prostitution. And many to be lost. It's not about right policy or wrong policy. It's about there just isn't anything in it for the person running for office.

 

[Cutlass]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583480257491107841

Basically, people who hate freedom, hate it with every fiber of their being. While people who support freedom aren't quite so obsessive.

 

[El_Machinae]

Okay, now that I have drawn the comparison to legalizing illegal work in order to create a net benefit, now we can discuss how a democracy voting against migrants is different from a union blocking scabs during a strike.

 

[Cutlass]

Okay, now that I have drawn the comparison to legalizing illegal work in order to create a net benefit, now we can discuss how a democracy voting against migrants is different from a union blocking scabs during a strike.

How do you think they are alike?

 

[Sommerswerd]

If you are not enforcing murder laws so that people think they can get away with it, then you are going to have trouble enforcing labor laws, yeah.

Its not about a lack of enforcement of "murder laws", employers can do a lot of other things to coerce and intimidate their employees besides murdering them. Killing a worker to silence them is just an extreme last resort. The point is that denying people legal status in the country makes them more vulnerable to all kinds of mistreatment by their employers and gives the employers substantial leverage to prevent the employees from reporting the mistreatment.

With a strategy of punishing the employer, not the employee, you could protect the people in illegal forms of labor, especially when they cooperate with evidence against their employer.

Maybe.

If reporting on illegal employment was a path to citizenship, employment of illegal migrants would plummet. Of course, then you would also have to have a plan what to do with the now unemployed illegals.

No. The second sentence is just one of the numerous reasons that the first sentence is incorrect. The employees don't report on their employer because they need their job to feed/clothe/shelter themselves and their families. A possibility of Citizenship in exchange for a certainty of unemployment/homelessness/hunger is not going to be an enticing deal for many folks.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Sorry but if one is not a citizen then they don't need benefits. Apply for asylum if the home county can't pay.

Your either in the tax system and a citizen or your not.

That is not actually true. Many undocumented are paying taxes while not being citizens. Even those who work for under the table cash pay sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc. Illegals with "fake" SS numbers pay into the system. In addition, not all illegals are collecting welfare or other safety net programs. You are painting the picture as black and white when it is far from it. You also ignore the ongoing issue of US citizens who work for under the table cash to avoid taxes. Furthermore, you ignore that most of the jobs taken by undocumented are vacant because citizens won't take them.

 

[Samson]

Furthermore, you ignore that most of the jobs taken by undocumented are vacant because citizens won't take them.

I do not really get this argument. Either the job generates enough value such that the wage will increase to attract employees, or it does not generate enough value to support a decent life in the area where it needs to be done in which case it probably should not be done.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I do not really get this argument. Either the job generates enough value such that the wage will increase to attract employees, or it does not generate enough value to support a decent life in the area where it needs to be done in which case it probably should not be done.

In theory you might be right, but in reality the economics of the work (determined by owners) does not warrant wage increases. Each type of work would have to be looked at to see what is going on to understand the dynamics. In addition, many Americans are opposed to doing jobs they think of as terrible and in conflict with their lifestyle requirements. Migrant labor work does not fit well with many/most Americans, but illegals are willing because it is perhaps better than what they had elsewhere. Economic theory often fails in the face of individual needs, business needs, and politics.

 

[Joij21]

That is not actually true. Many undocumented are paying taxes while not being citizens. Even those who work for under the table cash pay sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc. Illegals with "fake" SS numbers pay into the system. In addition, not all illegals are collecting welfare or other safety net programs. You are painting the picture as black and white when it is far from it. You also ignore the ongoing issue of US citizens who work for under the table cash to avoid taxes. Furthermore, you ignore that most of the jobs taken by undocumented are vacant because citizens won't take them.

Yes but they don't pay income taxes, therefore they are paying less then people who don't work under the table.

 

[El_Machinae]

The owners of the company also pay less.

But they'd prefer you be jealous of the person working under the table.

[Working under the table vs working with Fake ID will be different things ... the fake ID person could very easily be paying tax, more than the owners, even]

 

[stfoskey12]

In theory you might be right, but in reality the economics of the work (determined by owners) does not warrant wage increases. Each type of work would have to be looked at to see what is going on to understand the dynamics. In addition, many Americans are opposed to doing jobs they think of as terrible and in conflict with their lifestyle requirements. Migrant labor work does not fit well with many/most Americans, but illegals are willing because it is perhaps better than what they had elsewhere. Economic theory often fails in the face of individual needs, business needs, and politics.

I imagine many Americans would do farm labor if it paid enough. But what might happen if we deported illegal immigrants is simply that the crops would be grown in another country and we would import it from there.

 

[Samson]

I imagine many Americans would do farm labor if it paid enough. But what might happen if we deported illegal immigrants is simply that the crops would be grown in another country and we would import it from there.

Labour costs are not that much of the total price of food, so an increase in that is unlikely to make american agricultural products uncompetitive globally.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Yes but they don't pay income taxes, therefore they are paying less then people who don't work under the table.

Yes those only working for cash pay less, but fake SS numbers don't seem very hard to get or to be detected. Do we know what percent of undocumented workers work for cash versus those working under fake IDs? I don't. Now if your complaint is that such workers are not paying into the system, then you need to at least consider comparing their tax dodge to dodges regular citizens make to avoid income taxes. In addition, are you aware that after ~$100,000 in income, SS taxes don't apply? One has to be careful to not over simplify the situation. Much of the US business community is perfectly happy with the situation as it stands now. The situation involves: a variety of taxes, employments issues, business issues, documentation issues, enforcement issues, politics, and maybe most importantly; millions of people who are already living here.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I do not really get this argument. Either the job generates enough value such that the wage will increase to attract employees, or it does not generate enough value to support a decent life in the area where it needs to be done in which case it probably should not be done.

People often work jobs that don't pay them enough to live on.

They survive because their family, friends, savings, charities, social security etc support them.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I imagine many Americans would do farm labor if it paid enough. But what might happen if we deported illegal immigrants is simply that the crops would be grown in another country and we would import it from there.

Labour costs are not that much of the total price of food, so an increase in that is unlikely to make american agricultural products uncompetitive globally.

@Farm Boy might be a better person to weigh in on that. I do know that seasonal crop picking is a significant part of agriculture in the western half of the country. The work of migrant farm labor is too hard, too mobile, and too much of a pain in the butt for most Americans. Poor housing, physically hard, long hours, no internet, no paid breaks, no permanent home during picking season etc. And it is piece work so you can't loaf and still get paid.

Migrant Farm Workers: Our Nation's Invisible Population – Diversity, Equity and Inclusion

 

[Farm Boy]

Agricultural production labor per unit of grain food is very low. The labor in transport, supply chain, processing, packaging, marketing, shelving, and so forth is not insignificant. But when the cost of the base good goes up, so the corn flakes box contains 20 cents of corn instead of 4(out of which the lions share is not labor), it seems like the whole 2.50 thing becomes 5.00 or 5.50 somehow. I've never worked it all out.

For fruits, and fresh produce, it's more, but I'm out of my range, there. My sister has been looking at grapes, but the only one that seen to grow around here are ones you would make into wine, and not the best sorts of wine either, so I'm not super excited.

 

[Birdjaguar]

My wife and I have spent several weekends helping a local wine producer harvest grapes (paid in discounted bottles) and it was terrible work even without the pressure of needing the money. The vineyard uses it loyal customers to get the harvest in for free by making it an "event" for about 50 people. We like the wine and the owner and have been out there for tastings over the years. You couldn't pay me to do that work more than infrequently.

 

[Farm Boy]

I've always found quiet field work to be enjoyable and exercise... with the caveat that you have somebody you like talking with to talk with. Otherwise, it can be really tedious. I haven't bothered with the garden in a couple seasons. Just don't care.

 

[Angst]

My wife and I have spent several weekends helping a local wine producer harvest grapes (paid in discounted bottles) and it was terrible work even without the pressure of needing the money. The vineyard uses it loyal customers to get the harvest in for free by making it an "event" for about 50 people. We like the wine and the owner and have been out there for tastings over the years. You couldn't pay me to do that work more than infrequently.

sidenote here: it's almost as if wine should be more expensive than it is.

i know we're used to cheeseburgers for a few dollars, but a lot of the low prices and prosperity are largely artificial when taking into consideration the material process that's needed. some of this artificiality is warranted (it's a really good idea to keep water, food and utilities cheap), but other production chains cover some outright abuse.

now, i want to stress something. this is all kind of a sidenote as to the nature of immigrant work and native prosperity. let's abandon my qualms with invisible costs here and then we can stress, definitely: illegal migrants are very, very lucrative for a nation's economy. they put up with a lot of crap to earn very little money, and we benefit from it while abusing their position for political gains (or for the latter; some of us do).

 

[Cutlass]

Yes but they don't pay income taxes, therefore they are paying less then people who don't work under the table.

Yes, they do. Because a lot of their work is done on false identifications. But even if not, so what? They still pay all the other taxes, which are a larger part of the tax burden of the low income people.

I do not really get this argument. Either the job generates enough value such that the wage will increase to attract employees, or it does not generate enough value to support a decent life in the area where it needs to be done in which case it probably should not be done.

It's not really that simple. Cheap food benefits a lot of people outside the rural farming areas. To raise wages such that you could attract labor away from other, better jobs, would then distort all other wages.

Markets do not always produce the outcomes we'd want them to. Sometimes adjustments have to be made.

I imagine many Americans would do farm labor if it paid enough. But what might happen if we deported illegal immigrants is simply that the crops would be grown in another country and we would import it from there.

You'd be wrong. Farms cannot get labor without immigrants. They'll never be able to pay enough. The work is hard enough that the workers have to be used to damned desperate conditions. And Americans are not.