This early Sedentary Lifestyle (maybe not as early as T_C's game, but still) is actually good. We are going to (sometime) get the new Nomad mod working, and I presume that will mean a decline in early research. That is why I'm not going to adjust the PH era atm, although I could possibly fix it for the mean time until the nomads are added.
C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
This early Sedentary Lifestyle (maybe not as early as T_C's game, but still) is actually good. We are going to (sometime) get the new Nomad mod working, and I presume that will mean a decline in early research. That is why I'm not going to adjust the PH era atm, although I could possibly fix it for the mean time until the nomads are added.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Not sure it will mean a decline in research. My aim is to have Nomad nations viable until the late Renaissance at least. I want real nomads swooping down and raising all the cities so they can feed their herds.
rightfuture
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 1,649
Gypsies anyone?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I have plans for A Gypsies culture and even have a Gypsy Wagon UU picked out. However they will be called Romani.
Hi guys I wanna give you some feedbacks about my recent game on v23 version (not SVN)
I'm playing on a huge map with Snail speed; I started on immortal with flexible difficulty, switching to emperor on turn 75, immortal on turn 150 and deity from turn 225
the biggest feedback I'd like to give is about timeline: I'm in 1296 BC and I'm researching Banking, having reached almost the end of medieval era; the other AIs are behind me, something like 5-10 techs, except for some guys who stayed alone on an island without contact with anyone for along time; except from them, all the civilizations are too advanced in time in comparison to real history
second feedback: when I researched optics i was able to build Caravels and Barbary Corsair (same prerequisites, except for the Corsair requiring some civics); Caravels have strength 9 and mov. 3, while Corsair have strength 16 and mov. 4. so ther's no use in building caravels. In addition to that, Corsair can attack without declaring war: so I attacked my enemy ships (they have only triremes and decaremes 'cos I beelined to Optics), plundering a lot of gold and bloccading lots of sea tiles, destroying their economy. I suggest to move the Barbary corsair a bit later (maybe astronomy?) and to tweak its strength a bit (12), because it upgrades into a Privateer which is strength 17
3) gold (strange, don't you think?
) I have a net income of +1600 gold per turn, but I think that's all because of my play style; I like to build every single building (first production buildings, then gold and other buildings) in every city I build. I must say that I founded/conquererd my last city hundred years ago, so all my cities are well developed. About gold, I think that it is balanced as it is now
4) health and happiness; I have no problems with happiness, since I own lots of resources and I build lots of buildings; the same buildings are causing a lot of unhealthiness in my cities, but I think it's something realistic (ancient cities with huge popolation didn't use to be healthy =)); in the end, I think that the unhappiness should be increased a bit
Well I hope my feedbacks are useful for you
PS I can post a savegame if you need
I'm playing on a huge map with Snail speed; I started on immortal with flexible difficulty, switching to emperor on turn 75, immortal on turn 150 and deity from turn 225
the biggest feedback I'd like to give is about timeline: I'm in 1296 BC and I'm researching Banking, having reached almost the end of medieval era; the other AIs are behind me, something like 5-10 techs, except for some guys who stayed alone on an island without contact with anyone for along time; except from them, all the civilizations are too advanced in time in comparison to real history
second feedback: when I researched optics i was able to build Caravels and Barbary Corsair (same prerequisites, except for the Corsair requiring some civics); Caravels have strength 9 and mov. 3, while Corsair have strength 16 and mov. 4. so ther's no use in building caravels. In addition to that, Corsair can attack without declaring war: so I attacked my enemy ships (they have only triremes and decaremes 'cos I beelined to Optics), plundering a lot of gold and bloccading lots of sea tiles, destroying their economy. I suggest to move the Barbary corsair a bit later (maybe astronomy?) and to tweak its strength a bit (12), because it upgrades into a Privateer which is strength 17
3) gold (strange, don't you think?
) I have a net income of +1600 gold per turn, but I think that's all because of my play style; I like to build every single building (first production buildings, then gold and other buildings) in every city I build. I must say that I founded/conquererd my last city hundred years ago, so all my cities are well developed. About gold, I think that it is balanced as it is now4) health and happiness; I have no problems with happiness, since I own lots of resources and I build lots of buildings; the same buildings are causing a lot of unhealthiness in my cities, but I think it's something realistic (ancient cities with huge popolation didn't use to be healthy =)); in the end, I think that the unhappiness should be increased a bit
Well I hope my feedbacks are useful for you
PS I can post a savegame if you need
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
We do need to look at the ship lines again for balance. This looks like one good one so I will put it in. Thanks.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
This is already being address wit the new Air and Water Pollution properties. If you have a very crowded city changes are you will get some pollution which if left unchecked will give you a bunch of
and some 
. This should help balance things in future versions.Note I highly recommend you try out our SVN version since it has so many new features and we need feedback from the testers.
I agree, the middle to late ship lines are rather messed up. If I know Hydro though, he will already have ten plans on how to deal with it.
CIVPlayer8
Prince
I found a unit that desperately needs to be balanced: Modern Grenadier. Compare it's stats and cost to the Infantry unit, about same era. I propose taking away its bonus vs cities and Infantry, and just leave it as an anti tank unit. We should also decrease its strength to, say, 30?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I agree, the middle to late ship lines are rather messed up. If I know Hydro though, he will already have ten plans on how to deal with it.
On this one I don't. I would like to hear some more brainstorming in the units thread on how to fix them.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I agree, the middle to late ship lines are rather messed up. If I know Hydro though, he will already have ten plans on how to deal with it.
As far as I know Hydro has ignored the ship line. I have tried to get comments on it before to no avail. Anyway it is not his mod.
Well, if you post suggestions on any one of the five or so threads in which this discussion is occuring
, I'll look into changing things.
Played 400 turns on epic speed custom map and im miles ahead on deity.. kinda sad.
One thing I have to mention is that I find it almost unplayable at this speed because everything builds too quickly. I like the tech rate and everything else, like growth worker rate etc. But the time it takes to build units and buildings and wonders is way too quick. The reason this is such as problem is it basically drags the game through the mud with having to constantly redo build cues in cities to the point where you are nearly pulling out your hair.
I found this to be a bit of an issue on snail as well but just put it down to my personal preference and ignored it for the most part. On epic tho its nearly unplayable. Its only bearable for me coz I know what im doing and can very quickly shift click build cues from memory and race through popups very fast. However, for a new player trying out this mod - it would be horrible, (i somewhat remember what it was like when i first started playing this mod and was playing epic or marathon. I usually would just end up using automation a lot later in the game even tho i didn't want to, just simply because the never ending prodution complete process detracted way too much from the flow of the game.
Playing feels like a monotonous data-entry job where you just can't wait to finish the job and hit end turn as quick as humanly possible.
There is nothing wrong with the mod, far from it, its just the cost need to be tweaked similar to how research costs have been increased. Its way way too easy to just shift cue every single building (pretty much) and not have to use much strategy at all when making these decisions. You should NOT be able to build every building without them starting to go obsolete shortly after you build them (later in the build cue kinda thing).
There needs to be some level of strategy in terms of where you designate a cities 'time'.
If a city can simply sidestep this altogether because they have the time to build EVERYTHING this really belittles the gameplay and I think is part of the reason the mod isn't all that challenging at the moment.
Anyone can set there research to 100%, shift cue up all the building *excluding about 20% of them. Build your maximum allowed number of hunters/trackers and put them on auto-hunt. Build 1.5-2 workers per cities and put them on automation farms/mine/roads and resources. Put a paper weight down on the enter key, go run some errands for a couple of hours and come back and see that you are way ahead of DEITY AI slight exaggeration i know, but you get my point.
Civ4GameSpeedinfos.xml
EPIC SPEED
-These numbers are % where 100% is the normal price.
<iConstructPercent>150</iConstructPercent> 300 or 350
<iTrainPercent>125</iTrainPercent> 250 or 200
This is what im gonna do from now on anyway. Considering the iResearch=350 in addition to the iTechCostModifier in CIV4EraInfos.xml which further increases technology costs - surely it makes sense to increase building and unit costs as well.
Another point is when production is drawn out the longer it is before a benefit is received the better it is for the AI since they have an inherent production bonus.
Another thing- the <iHurryPercent>66 its too easy to just buy anything takes longer than 1 turn.
One thing I have to mention is that I find it almost unplayable at this speed because everything builds too quickly. I like the tech rate and everything else, like growth worker rate etc. But the time it takes to build units and buildings and wonders is way too quick. The reason this is such as problem is it basically drags the game through the mud with having to constantly redo build cues in cities to the point where you are nearly pulling out your hair.
I found this to be a bit of an issue on snail as well but just put it down to my personal preference and ignored it for the most part. On epic tho its nearly unplayable. Its only bearable for me coz I know what im doing and can very quickly shift click build cues from memory and race through popups very fast. However, for a new player trying out this mod - it would be horrible, (i somewhat remember what it was like when i first started playing this mod and was playing epic or marathon. I usually would just end up using automation a lot later in the game even tho i didn't want to, just simply because the never ending prodution complete process detracted way too much from the flow of the game.
Playing feels like a monotonous data-entry job where you just can't wait to finish the job and hit end turn as quick as humanly possible.
There is nothing wrong with the mod, far from it, its just the cost need to be tweaked similar to how research costs have been increased. Its way way too easy to just shift cue every single building (pretty much) and not have to use much strategy at all when making these decisions. You should NOT be able to build every building without them starting to go obsolete shortly after you build them (later in the build cue kinda thing).
There needs to be some level of strategy in terms of where you designate a cities 'time'.
If a city can simply sidestep this altogether because they have the time to build EVERYTHING this really belittles the gameplay and I think is part of the reason the mod isn't all that challenging at the moment.
Anyone can set there research to 100%, shift cue up all the building *excluding about 20% of them. Build your maximum allowed number of hunters/trackers and put them on auto-hunt. Build 1.5-2 workers per cities and put them on automation farms/mine/roads and resources. Put a paper weight down on the enter key, go run some errands for a couple of hours and come back and see that you are way ahead of DEITY AI slight exaggeration i know, but you get my point.
Civ4GameSpeedinfos.xml
EPIC SPEED
-These numbers are % where 100% is the normal price.
<iConstructPercent>150</iConstructPercent> 300 or 350
<iTrainPercent>125</iTrainPercent> 250 or 200
This is what im gonna do from now on anyway. Considering the iResearch=350 in addition to the iTechCostModifier in CIV4EraInfos.xml which further increases technology costs - surely it makes sense to increase building and unit costs as well.
Another point is when production is drawn out the longer it is before a benefit is received the better it is for the AI since they have an inherent production bonus.
Another thing- the <iHurryPercent>66 its too easy to just buy anything takes longer than 1 turn.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I could Never play Epic the way you are doing.
1. I never use auto hunt that just takes the Fun out of it.
2. And your build times for units really doesn't fit either. Get into several major wars and you should change your mind.
3. I never automate my workers. No Fun! And they screw up the countryside to boot.
4. What you call strategy doesn't fit my experience for this speed. You've taken the challenge of the speed right out.
5. 1 game on Epic does Not make you an eXpert on it either. I would Never think of playing on Snail and slower and play 1 game and come back with a critique. That's just plain absurd. Way too many variables to give even an accurate overview of the data on 1 pass.
6. It is not a data entry hit turn speed either. That is your misinterpretation of how to play. Every turn requires a thought process for each city and unit.
Please change how you play on Epic or stop trying to screw with my speed and way. Thank you kindly.
JosEPh
1. I never use auto hunt that just takes the Fun out of it.
2. And your build times for units really doesn't fit either. Get into several major wars and you should change your mind.
3. I never automate my workers. No Fun! And they screw up the countryside to boot.
4. What you call strategy doesn't fit my experience for this speed. You've taken the challenge of the speed right out.
5. 1 game on Epic does Not make you an eXpert on it either. I would Never think of playing on Snail and slower and play 1 game and come back with a critique. That's just plain absurd. Way too many variables to give even an accurate overview of the data on 1 pass.
6. It is not a data entry hit turn speed either. That is your misinterpretation of how to play. Every turn requires a thought process for each city and unit.
Please change how you play on Epic or stop trying to screw with my speed and way. Thank you kindly.
JosEPh
As I explained, it does not.
You- the player want to **Requirement to succeed / desired strategy.
A) Build every single building exempt about 20% of them that are crap in my opinion (won't go into which ones). You want to do this because YOU CAN.
B) Build nothing but farms and mines (I personally leave forests till at least bronze working) if you are safe you can even wait till the 2nd +50% from chopping tech *can't remember name, **after mathematics. Because of this automation is perfectly OK since the automated workers really have ZERO decion. You simply remove certain terrain improvements from the allowed list that the workers can build. Such as cottages and forts and so on.
C) Keep science at 100% all game.
Considering this, why on earth would I "REQUIRE" a thought process for every city/unit every turn.. stick to noble champ
oh and what do u mean my unit production doesn't fit.. im playing deity so I have big production handicap and still cities that build troops build like 2-5 units PER TURN (end of ancient, starting classical)
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
As I explained, it does not.
You- the player want to **Requirement to succeed / desired strategy.
A) Build every single building exempt about 20% of them that are crap in my opinion (won't go into which ones). You want to do this because YOU CAN.
B) Build nothing but farms and mines (I personally leave forests till at least bronze working) if you are safe you can even wait till the 2nd +50% from chopping tech *can't remember name, **after mathematics. Because of this automation is perfectly OK since the automated workers really have ZERO decion. You simply remove certain terrain improvements from the allowed list that the workers can build. Such as cottages and forts and so on.
C) Keep science at 100% all game.
Considering this, why on earth would I "REQUIRE" a thought process for every city/unit every turn.. stick to noble champ
oh and what do u mean my unit production doesn't fit.. im playing deity so I have big production handicap and still cities that build troops build like 2-5 units PER TURN (end of ancient, starting classical)
I've stated it time and time again I Do stick to Noble because it puts AI and Player on same level. What is so hard to understand about that if you are Testing?
A) I never build every building, have no real time to do so unlike snail.
B) why would I only build farms and mines. Mines on a forest ted tile, whether hill or flat will eventually remove the forest and the option to change the tile improvement down the line.
C) Science slider only stays on 100% in Preh Era after that it is reduced as needed per era.
Considering this, why on earth would I "REQUIRE" a thought process for every city/unit every turn.. stick to noble champ
Consider this has it ever occurred to you that your play style is extremely stilted and mechanical in it's very nature. Everything Must be maxed or it's wrong?
As for 2-5 units produced per turn at the end of ancient /start of Classic. Apparently you are mass producing the lowest level units available. And probably Only in select cities to boot. Playstyle: Yours is too static, formulaic, for my tastes and play style. And that does Not make you a superior player either. Just one who has less Fun in my book.
And thank you I will stick to Noble as long as I'm testing. "stick to noble champ
" Your arrogance is showing champ 
JosEPh
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
That's actually a good point. Most of the time if its not core or in my mods I leave it alone. Unless there is urgent need to chnage things. I usually have enough to do with my own stuff to fix and balance.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Without the idea of fun there is no need for balance.
No-one mentioned my key idea- that;
iConstructPercent
iTrainPercent
Should be increased.
CURRENTLY~
Snail
<iResearchPercent>1000</iResearchPercent>
And the additional reduction to how many beakers get applied to your research throughout the eras, say an average of an additional -35% beakers.
<iConstructPercent>300</iConstructPercent>
<iTrainPercent>250</iTrainPercent>
epic
<iResearchPercent>350</iResearchPercent>
And the additional reduction to how many beakers get applied to your research throughout the eras, say an average of like -35%.
<iConstructPercent>150</iConstructPercent>
<iTrainPercent>125</iTrainPercent> These two in particular that need to be increased, I think doubled, but maybe not, depends on what others think too .
This is out of whack in terms of the games pacing and structure.
Lets look at vanilla BTS and Rise of Mankind - A new dawn.
BTS
MARATHON
<iResearchPercent>300</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>300</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>200</iTrainPercent>
Rise of Mankind - A new dawn.
SNAIL
<iResearchPercent>700</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>300</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>250</iTrainPercent>
EPIC
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>150</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>150</iTrainPercent>
See what I mean, the ratio is totally out of whack in c2c and thats why the player can comfortably build 90% of ALL buildings in EVERY City. Where is the strategy in that..
iConstructPercent
iTrainPercent
Should be increased.
CURRENTLY~
Snail
<iResearchPercent>1000</iResearchPercent>
And the additional reduction to how many beakers get applied to your research throughout the eras, say an average of an additional -35% beakers.
<iConstructPercent>300</iConstructPercent>
<iTrainPercent>250</iTrainPercent>
epic
<iResearchPercent>350</iResearchPercent>
And the additional reduction to how many beakers get applied to your research throughout the eras, say an average of like -35%.
<iConstructPercent>150</iConstructPercent>
<iTrainPercent>125</iTrainPercent> These two in particular that need to be increased, I think doubled, but maybe not, depends on what others think too .
This is out of whack in terms of the games pacing and structure.
Lets look at vanilla BTS and Rise of Mankind - A new dawn.
BTS
MARATHON
<iResearchPercent>300</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>300</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>200</iTrainPercent>
Rise of Mankind - A new dawn.
SNAIL
<iResearchPercent>700</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>300</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>250</iTrainPercent>
EPIC
<iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
<iConstructPercent>150</iBuildPercent>
<iTrainPercent>150</iTrainPercent>
See what I mean, the ratio is totally out of whack in c2c and thats why the player can comfortably build 90% of ALL buildings in EVERY City. Where is the strategy in that..
