C2C Balance Thread

[Hydromancerx]

Rather than removing perhaps we should just make more things that give . For example ...

- More Crimes.
- More Civics that give
- More building that give
- Add new properties that give more (such as diseases)
- Make more events that give .

 

[T C]

Yes I agree with that.

Also I would like to see some buildings that give several bonuses costing gold. So a building like the dog breeder, which gives a and bonuses could cost some gold too.

 

[T C]

Difference in playing styles really. I do play on Eternity though too, which might make a difference in incomes and how long it takes to remedy health/happy issues. If nothing else the turn examples I might use are for Eternity so would be a lot lower on Snail. Don't know how much lower though.

....

Health: Is a serious issue in the first city until several techs down the line. With a bad start my initial city doesn't even start growing until 100-300 turns into the game, due to health issues. With a good start I can start growing right away, with +1-2 food per turn. Most are somewhere in-between. Since I also prioritize hammers and commerce in the Prehistoric Era I do build a bunch of + buildings (which might change, or not, come the disease mod) so even when gaining more health from various sources I still occasionally get unhealthy cities, sometimes lasting a long time too. In the Classical Era in my current game I finally managed to get my 18 pop capitol healthy again via Church Civic, I have an extra 2 to grow into. It's basically been unhealthy throughout most of the ages so far.

I think the difference in speeds may be the difference between our perspectives here. In the very beginning, health can be a problem with a bad starting position, but really once I've researched herbalism and cooking it ceases to be a problem. I literally don't have to think about it again.

There are also quite a lot more buildings which give health than which cause unhealthiness, plus of course many resources which give health and few which cost it. When I used to play ROM:AND health could be a big problem for me, but in C2C, I've never had a real problem with it.

Wealth: I also tend to save up a load of animals, and that costs a lot of money. With additional cities that starts getting better but not overly abundant. Then again I do spread out to 6-10 cities decently fast once I can build my Tribes and get to Chiefdom. That puts a serious dent in any income I have though I can manage to keep it in the positive most of the time.

Happy: This also comes down to over expanding as soon as Tribes become available. This I do keep above level though so I don't have any citizens. Basically it's :happy: and that governs my expansion rate; can I afford it in pure costs, and will I end up with citizens? If not then I sneak in another city.

I actually turned the civic limits off because I thought it would help the AI to expand faster (they reach tribalism a long time before me and so often have 5-6 cities by the time I'm ready to found my 2nd), so for me expansion doesn't cause happiness problems, but perhaps it has made things too easy for me on this front.

I also try to save up animals, but with a huge amount of gold producing buildings there are, I never seem to run into financial trouble. I think the addition of more gold producing buildings and the recent changes to housing have made gold even more abundant.

 

[T C]

Joesph.

1) I used to play ROM:AND as well and I found it more challenging with regard to health, happiness and gold than C2C.

2) This thread is called the balance thread, and I think that these aspects are important for the balance of the game. Recently a number of new buildings have been added which give more science, happiness, gold and research, i.e. they have changed the balance of the game. So I think it is worth talking about them.

3) If the slider isn't used, what is the point of having a slider? Now I'm in the ancient era I can have 13 cities, a reasonably large army and run a gold surplus of +100 per turn and not once have I ever had to think about not having 100% science. Maybe later on I will prefer to use some for culture or espionage but my point was that I don't have to use the slider for gold, because it's so abundant...

 

[Sgtslick]

Joesph.

1) I used to play ROM:AND as well and I found it more challenging with regard to health, happiness and gold than C2C.

2) This thread is called the balance thread, and I think that these aspects are important for the balance of the game. Recently a number of new buildings have been added which give more science, happiness, gold and research, i.e. they have changed the balance of the game. So I think it is worth talking about them.

3) If the slider isn't used, what is the point of having a slider? Now I'm in the ancient era I can have 13 cities, a reasonably large army and run a gold surplus of +100 per turn and not once have I ever had to think about not having 100% science. Maybe later on I will prefer to use some for culture or espionage but my point was that I don't have to use the slider for gold, because it's so abundant...

Well said and agreed. I like hydro's suggestion about + instead of - this will work just as well i guess.

 

[ls612]

On Epic it used to be turn 10. But I had forgotten that Is612 has been making changes. And I'm still using SVN ver. 2547.


<snip>

JosEPh

They now start on turn 25 on Epic. BTW, have you tried the new Epic yet?

I really feel that happiness needs to be tweaked.
Please remove the +1 happy from some buildings, eg. dog trainer, gov pets - its excessive.

Please increase maintenance, its far too easy to stay on 100% science for virtually the entire game.

If players had to use there economy strategically more it would improve gameplay. The trade wagons and trade ships aren't necessary coz you don't need the $. In my current game im in ancient era have about 18 cities, 100% science and im still making $200 a turn on immortal difficulty. This is clearly not balanced.

We have gone around and around on this issue, I tend to be with JosEPh and Hydro in that things are pretty good at the moment. I personally find it relatively easy to stay at 100% science, unless I'm at war, then my finances can get quite interesting.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Is612,
I started a new game with SVN version 2547. I have Not updated since because of the "problems" of late and koshling being mostly absent. I'm at 2594BC Classical Era with 15 cities and getting set up to capture several Barb Cities that have some resources I covet (like horses since I founded Tengri).

@TC,
For the most part your research slider will not come off 100% in Prehistoric era no matter what difficulty level you play. It's just the "nature of the beast". That said there is a bit more gold with the housing changes with this version. At my current date I have (for the 1st time in a long time) a tresury of 6000 gold and ~ 42gold/turn. It was 120 gold but I founded 4 cities one after the other and that drains the gold/turn pretty fast. I Do Not play with City Limits On (I personally feel that Mod Option is obsolete and not needed any more).

Don't be overly concerned about your gold surplus in Preh, cause as you advance thru the Eras it Will diminish.

I too played both RoM (from version .80 thru 2.92) and AND (from inception thru 1.76 beta 2). But I rarely use Revolutions with either. Zappara and Afforess both have heard my voice over the years on Gold, Culture, Rev, and other areas of these modders' efforts.

@Sgtslick,
You know well enough that every time the team adds more to the mod we go thru a re-balancing phase. But what many times happens is those of you that cry "too much gold" go overboard on your demands, hurt the AI and take the Fun out of playing the mod all in the name of "improved gameplay". I'm not against improvements but in a sensible measured approach, not slash and burn as has happened Way to often.

JosEPh

 

[T C]

Update: Classical era reached at 2780BC (Mathematics) but to be fair I still have to research most ancient era techs and even one or two prehistoric ones.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@TC,
For the most part your research slider will not come off 100% in Prehistoric era no matter what difficulty level you play. It's just the "nature of the beast". That said there is a bit more gold with the housing changes with this version. At my current date I have (for the 1st time in a long time) a tresury of 6000 gold and ~ 42gold/turn. It was 120 gold but I founded 4 cities one after the other and that drains the gold/turn pretty fast. I Do Not play with City Limits On (I personally feel that Mod Option is obsolete and not needed any more).

Don't be overly concerned about your gold surplus in Preh, cause as you advance thru the Eras it Will diminish.

JosEPh

Interesting, I often have to drop my tech to below 60% in the prehistoric era. perhaps I keep to many animals.

 

[Sgtslick]

instead of dropping your research dancing, just build wealth.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

instead of dropping your research dancing, just build wealth.

All wealth buildings have been built!

 

[T C]

I think he means actually building wealth, or lesser wealth or meagre wealth.

 

[Sgtslick]

^this

 

[BlueGenie]

I only do that if I have nothing else to build, and then I usually try to keep my amount of animals down enough to be able to do science then instead.

Cheers

 

[Sgtslick]

Yeah i usually do it as a last resort. I would definately not run 60% science in prehistoric tho, thats crazy talk
If i've massed big stack to take out an ai capital while having maxed amount of hunters out hunting, and saving some animals at home that can create herds in new cities & have 4-5 gatherers building trails & stuff.. this is a good time to build wealth.

34% or whatever it is for meager wealth isn't bad if you have like 30 hammers, it should pay for all your unit costs anyway.

 

[T C]

Update for Is612

I started a new game to test the new timeline. Sedentary Lifetstyle was reached (not by me, I'm still pre-tribalism!) at 21040BC. Techs are moving quickly for me 4-7 turns, although I am building a lot of research these days.

 

[azcore]

Update for Is612

I started a new game to test the new timeline. Sedentary Lifetstyle was reached (not by me, I'm still pre-tribalism!) at 21040BC.

Which speed setting is that? I started new game with new timeline few days ago. Snail/30 civs on 3 continents/second largest map size/Immortal(switched to Deity at turn 450 cause I feel that AI need a boost in that particular game). First AI became Tribal at 21040BC and I reached Tribalsim at 18040BC. Sedentary Lifestyle was reached at 16240BC by AI player.

 

[azcore]

Yes, but as I have said before on my test map 3 of 6 AI players were dead on turn 25, and that was on immortal. Sure, that was with neanderthals right here from the start, now they are spawned only on 45kbc, but I'm not sure if it will matter much if AI will defend its cities with brutes and rock throwers.

Turns out that AI handles Raging Barbs well with neanderthals spawned at 45KBC. In my current game(settings are in previous post) only one AI of 29 fell at the hands of the neanderthals.

 

[BlueGenie]

Testing ls612's new speed settings for Eternity, Gigantic, Deity:
Sedentary Lifestyle and Ancient Era; AI at 21890BC, Human at 12860BC.

Cheers

 

[T C]

azcore: I play on snail.