C2C Balance Thread

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Bonus balancing

A quick look at the bonuses shows that on the base yield change before improvements are taken into consideration.

• Donkeys are by far the best livestock to have followed by Llama. All other livestock provide one or or Donkeys (1:2:1) Llama (0:1:1)
• Barley provides and on top of the that the other grains give.
• Mushrooms are much better than the other vegetables giving an extra
• Mango and Papaya provide twice the that other fruit provides plus

the rest look OK but I have not checked the ones that are features yet.

 

[Epona222]

@Epona: The numbers are in the CIV4EraInfos. To change things to how they were, change the value of all the <iTechCostModifier> tags to 0.

Cheers! I would have either remembered or found it for myself eventually, but I thought asking would be quicker and I was correct

I don't think I've ever had them all set to 0 intentionally (unless they were changed to 0 at some point in the last few months by the C2C team and I didn't notice!), the default is just a lower value than the ones currently in use, with I think the highest being something like 16 for the last 2 eras - that is quite low, I intend to adjust them a bit lower than your settings and that should make a good balance between research and production for my particular game setup - for me I like it so my research is fast enough that I never run out of stuff to build in my cities as that makes for a boring game if they are all stuck on producing wealth/research because there aren't any buildings left, so I'll fiddle about with the values until it appropriately suits the pace of my game Thanks!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Are neandtherthals supposed be here right from the start?
I have been wiped by two neandtherthals on turn 17 (snail speed), afair there was no neanderthals so early in the game with previous revisions.

It's been that the Neander spawn starts at turn 10 so by turn 11 they should be showing up.

JosEPh

 

[azcore]

Gamespeed Turn#s and Research Modifiers
<iTechCostModifier> tags to 0.

Also turn counts are slightly off: 7200 instead of 7250 for snail and 14405 instead of 14305 for eternity.

 

[azcore]

It's been that the Neander spawn starts at turn 10 so by turn 11 they should be showing up.

JosEPh

Really? I've checked sources and before last revision it was:

<SpawnInfos>
<SpawnInfo>
<Type>SPAWN_NEANDERTHAL_BASE</Type>
<UnitType>UNIT_NEANDERTHAL</UnitType>
...
<iStartDate>-11000</iStartDate>
<iEndDate>-8000</iEndDate>

-11000 on snail is turn 50.

And now it is:

<iStartDate>-50000</iStartDate>
<iEndDate>-35000</iEndDate>

So they spawn right at turn 0.

There was nothing I could possibly have done against 2 neandhertals at turn 17 (on immortal). They killed stone thrower and brute I have stationed in the city.

 

[azcore]

And with c2c version 22 we had clubman (str 2) right from the start, now it's only brute and stone thrower (str 1), so it's harder to defend city at start of the game.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Bonus balancing

A quick look at the bonuses shows that on the base yield change before improvements are taken into consideration.

• Donkeys are by far the best livestock to have followed by Llama. All other livestock provide one or or Donkeys (1:2:1) Llama (0:1:1)
• Barley provides and on top of the that the other grains give.
• Mushrooms are much better than the other vegetables giving an extra
• Mango and Papaya provide twice the that other fruit provides plus

the rest look OK but I have not checked the ones that are features yet.

Yeah I think we need to be more constant with the types of resources that are similar.

 

[ls612]

Are neandtherthals supposed be here right from the start?
I have been wiped by two neandtherthals on turn 17 (snail speed), afair there was no neanderthals so early in the game with previous revisions.

1. Oops, I missed that. they should wait until 45KBC to start.

2. The neanders should still have -75% City Attack, so you should not be wiped by them unless you leave your city unguarded (bad idea).

 

[azcore]

2. The neanders should still have -75% City Attack, so you should not be wiped by them unless you leave your city unguarded (bad idea).

I had brute and rock thrower fortified in city and they was wiped by two neanderthals.
Judging by combat logs they had poor chances to defend city.
As I understood from battle logs that -75% city attack is not applied to neaderthals str. Instead it gives +75% to city defenders against neanderthals.
So it is 1+0.75+0.25 rock thrower city bonus + maybe 0.25 fortify=2.25 at max which is still to little against str 3 of neanderthal. +75% bonus was good to clubmen but not for puny rock throwers or brutes.

 

[azcore]

I have started test game on normal map, immortal level and at turn 25 three of six AI players was defeated by neanderthals. Also there is screenshot of battle log in attach. Here neanderthals was attacking across the river (+25%) and there is inherent city vs barbarians modifier which I forgot to add in previous post (+25%), but neanderthals still was stronger than defenders available at that time.

 

[ls612]

I have started test game on normal map, immortal level and at turn 25 three of six AI players was defeated by neanderthals. Also there is screenshot of battle log in attach. Here neanderthals was attacking across the river, but still was stronger than defenders available at that time.

Yes, I moved the Neanders spawn start to 45KBC, so update your SVN and that should fix this. Are you using Raging Barbs by chance?

 

[azcore]

Yes, I moved the Neanders spawn start to 45KBC, so update your SVN and that should fix this. Are you using Raging Barbs by chance?

Yes, I am using Raging Barbs and now I am concerned by ability of AI to defend themselves against neanders even with spawn at 45KBC. I was thinking that -75% modifier applied to 3.0 str, so attacking neanderthal have no chance against city defender. But now I see that modifier applied to strength of defender and it seems entirely possible that many AIs would be wiped by neanders before getting clubmen(and surely neanders would raze all AI plot improvements, it looks to me that AI is not very fond of defending its improvements).

So, is Raging Barbs option crippling to AI?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Really? I've checked sources and before last revision it was:

<SpawnInfos>
<SpawnInfo>
<Type>SPAWN_NEANDERTHAL_BASE</Type>
<UnitType>UNIT_NEANDERTHAL</UnitType>
...
<iStartDate>-11000</iStartDate>
<iEndDate>-8000</iEndDate>

-11000 on snail is turn 50.

And now it is:

<iStartDate>-50000</iStartDate>
<iEndDate>-35000</iEndDate>

So they spawn right at turn 0.

There was nothing I could possibly have done against 2 neandhertals at turn 17 (on immortal). They killed stone thrower and brute I have stationed in the city.

On Epic it used to be turn 10. But I had forgotten that Is612 has been making changes. And I'm still using SVN ver. 2547.

So, is Raging Barbs option crippling to AI?

Well it definitely "buffs" up the Barbs against everyone. So using it means that you or the AI can come to an early "end" with it on.

Afforess adopted/made Raging Barbs for AND and since AND didn't have a Prehistoric Era the defenders were a bit better prepared to withstand the "Hordes". But since AND was the basis for C2C and coupled with the added Preh Era, the defenders are much weaker in the Preh era start.

JosEPh

 

[azcore]

Well it definitely "buffs" up the Barbs against everyone. So using it means that you or the AI can come to an early "end" with it on.

Yes, but I suspect that AI much more vulnerable now. At least I know that my priority is toolmaking, so I can build clubmen to defend against neanders when they come. And I try to defend land improvements, but AI often doesn't.

But since AND was the basis for C2C and coupled with the added Preh Era, the defenders are much weaker in the Preh era start.

So I take it need to be balanced and before it is balanced I am inclined to play without it. It's a pity, that option adds additional challenge to early game, but I think it harms AI more than me.

 

[Sgtslick]

on higher difficulty levels AI gets a nice bonus vs barbarians if your playing noble or monarch etc don't have raging barbs on coz ai would lose more to them.

 

[azcore]

on higher difficulty levels AI gets a nice bonus vs barbarians

Yes, but as I have said before on my test map 3 of 6 AI players were dead on turn 25, and that was on immortal. Sure, that was with neanderthals right here from the start, now they are spawned only on 45kbc, but I'm not sure if it will matter much if AI will defend its cities with brutes and rock throwers.

 

[Sgtslick]

I really feel that happiness needs to be tweaked.
Please remove the +1 happy from some buildings, eg. dog trainer, gov pets - its excessive.

Please increase maintenance, its far too easy to stay on 100% science for virtually the entire game.

If players had to use there economy strategically more it would improve gameplay. The trade wagons and trade ships aren't necessary coz you don't need the $. In my current game im in ancient era have about 18 cities, 100% science and im still making $200 a turn on immortal difficulty. This is clearly not balanced.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I really feel that happiness needs to be tweaked.
Please remove the +1 happy from some buildings, eg. dog trainer, gov pets - its excessive.

Please increase maintenance, its far too easy to stay on 100% science for virtually the entire game.

If players had to use there economy strategically more it would improve gameplay. The trade wagons and trade ships aren't necessary coz you don't need the $. In my current game im in ancient era have about 18 cities, 100% science and im still making $200 a turn on immortal difficulty. This is clearly not balanced.

Governor's Pets and Menagerie are about happiness and revolution reduction. That is their purpose. Are you suggesting they be removed completely?

 

[Epona222]

Governor's Pets and Menagerie are about happiness and revolution reduction. That is their purpose. Are you suggesting they be removed completely?

I find Governor's Pets and Menagerie absolutely necessary when playing with Rev on, if I conquer a city a bit away from my Capital and then discover a tech that gives a religion, (as I don't use divine prophets or limited religions) chances are it will found in that city and the only quick options for a desperate attempt at getting the revolt meter under even the tiniest bit of control early in the game are the Pets and Menagerie buildings. They are definitely very useful, at least for some playstyles

 

[Sgtslick]

They give happy, culture and less revolt, im saying get rid of the +1 happy. Maybe there are other buildings better suited to removing the positive happy, its just a suggestion. Having a surplus of 15 happies in late prehistoric is too much IMO.

It'd be good if happiness was harder to control because this would result in players being more strategic about there population growth. Spamming farms and pop booming wouldn't be such a no-brainer.