C2C Balance Thread

[JosEPh_II]

As I keep saying, I was asked to remove it from slaves not settled citizens.

If you want I am willing to make slaves settle as settled slaves and give -1 +3 and not the gold with patrician. That would stop you settling so many in one city.

Do It!

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do It!

JosEPh

Unfortunately it wont affect current settled citizens. However it is a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned. It also wont introduce a problem when we get around to having the change civic event available in python and use it.

 

[BlueGenie]

The fix you did for Slaves doesn't work anyway. *wink* At least it didn't work for Citizens when I transposed the fix to them, thus my "fix" for both Slaves and Settled Citizens.

Cheers

 

[Acularius]

As I keep saying, I was asked to remove it from slaves not settled citizens.

If you want I am willing to make slaves settle as settled slaves and give -1 +3 and not the gold with patrician. That would stop you settling so many in one city.

That would be pretty awesome actually, granted there is a way to emancipate them at the end of slavery.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The fix you did for Slaves doesn't work anyway. *wink* At least it didn't work for Citizens when I transposed the fix to them, thus my "fix" for both Slaves and Settled Citizens.

Cheers

But you fix takes the +gold from Military Instructors as well.

 

[BlueGenie]

Ah, didn't think of those. Any others I should add too then that are not in the normal list?

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Ah, didn't think of those. Any others I should add too then that are not in the normal list?

Cheers

Not at the moment.

 

[Sgtslick]

War Wagons need to be nerfed.

8 strength, +100% vs melee, +25% withdrawal chance, immune to first strike - totally overpowered.

It says in the description - is killed by archers and forests. This isn't true, they are immune to first strikes and have an inherent withdrawal chance. Also -25% forest attack is nothing.

Change them to -50% forest/jungle defence, I know they don't get defensive bonuses but still 8 strength is huge.
Also I think change to -30% strength vs archers or something, also consider reducing the withdrawal chance to 10% or 15%.

As I keep saying, I was asked to remove it from slaves not settled citizens.

If you want I am willing to make slaves settle as settled slaves and give -1 +3 and not the gold with patrician. That would stop you settling so many in one city.

-1 +2 sounds more fair if they give you +1 pop when you leave slavery, they should also get a negative health or happy like -.5 too.

 

[ls612]

War Wagons need to be nerfed.

8 strength, +100% vs melee, +25% withdrawal chance, immune to first strike - totally overpowered.

It says in the description - is killed by archers and forests. This isn't true, they are immune to first strikes and have an inherent withdrawal chance. Also -25% forest attack is nothing.

Change them to -50% forest/jungle defence, I know they don't get defensive bonuses but still 8 strength is huge.
Also I think change to -30% strength vs archers or something, also consider reducing the withdrawal chance to 10% or 15%.

I think that the Chariot line of units should not have First Strike Immune and should have -25% str vs Archers. Maybe the wagon's base strength should be nerfed as well. I'll look into the options tomorrow.

 

[Sgtslick]

I think that the Chariot line of units should not have First Strike Immune and should have -25% str vs Archers. Maybe the wagon's base strength should be nerfed as well. I'll look into the options tomorrow.

Yes getting rid of first strike immune sounds good. Currently there is no point going for the first strike line of promotions since so many units are first strike immune or can easily gain immunity with an easy to get promotion. Like the final withdrawal chance promotion - more withdrawal chance is already super powerful to the point where you will have over 50% withdrawal easily in most cases, giving them immunity to first strikes too is going overboard.

What about buffing the pikeman, this guy is currently useless since he's melee and gets no bonuses to archers or melee and only 50% bonus vs mounted he serves no purpose except maybe early horseman who can withdraw a lot of the time anyway. He's also only 6 strength.
Maybe change pikeman to 7 strength and +75% vs mounted or something.

Currently chariots are too cheap! Pikeman are only very marginally cheaper, are a far crappier unit and come at a much later technology.
The chariot line needs to have -25% to city attack or something, its too easy to just mass them and conquer the world since there is no way to stop them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

-1 +2 sounds more fair if they give you +1 pop when you leave slavery, they should also get a negative health or happy like -.5 too.

Normal slaves are -1 +3 so that is why the settled slaves get that value.

I was thinking of having the settled slaves convert to settled citizens (+1 +2:hammers, +1) when you leave slavery on a two or three to one basis. Then have events or something that turned them into normal specialists.

 

[Hydromancerx]

What about buffing the pikeman, this guy is currently useless since he's melee and gets no bonuses to archers or melee and only 50% bonus vs mounted he serves no purpose except maybe early horseman who can withdraw a lot of the time anyway. He's also only 6 strength.
Maybe change pikeman to 7 strength and +75% vs mounted or something.

Currently chariots are too cheap! Pikeman are only very marginally cheaper, are a far crappier unit and come at a much later technology.
The chariot line needs to have -25% to city attack or something, its too easy to just mass them and conquer the world since there is no way to stop them.

If the Pikemen get 75% vs mounted then the Heavy Pikemen will need to be changed too. So will all unique culture polearm units which include the Swiss Pikeman, Lansknechet, Silat and Pkak'ak.

 

[Sgtslick]

Normal slaves are -1 +3 so that is why the settled slaves get that value.

I was thinking of having the settled slaves convert to settled citizens (+1 +2:hammers, +1) when you leave slavery on a two or three to one basis. Then have events or something that turned them into normal specialists.

So in other words you wouldn't get the extra pop point just a commerce 2 hammers and a gotcha, even this is too strong I think. It should have a penalty too, like an option to convert costing $500 or a permanent -.5 something along these lines.

 

[ls612]

Yes getting rid of first strike immune sounds good. Currently there is no point going for the first strike line of promotions since so many units are first strike immune or can easily gain immunity with an easy to get promotion. Like the final withdrawal chance promotion - more withdrawal chance is already super powerful to the point where you will have over 50% withdrawal easily in most cases, giving them immunity to first strikes too is going overboard.

What about buffing the pikeman, this guy is currently useless since he's melee and gets no bonuses to archers or melee and only 50% bonus vs mounted he serves no purpose except maybe early horseman who can withdraw a lot of the time anyway. He's also only 6 strength.
Maybe change pikeman to 7 strength and +75% vs mounted or something.

Currently chariots are too cheap! Pikeman are only very marginally cheaper, are a far crappier unit and come at a much later technology.
The chariot line needs to have -25% to city attack or something, its too easy to just mass them and conquer the world since there is no way to stop them.

Here are the changes I applied to the chariots on the current SVN.

• Chariots now have +75% vs Melee (was +100%)
• Chariots no longer have First Strike Immune
• Chariots now have -50% in Forests (was -25%)

Do these sound good for now?

 

[Sgtslick]

Here are the changes I applied to the chariots on the current SVN.

• Chariots now have +75% vs Melee (was +100%)
• Chariots no longer have First Strike Immune
• Chariots now have -50% in Forests (was -25%)

Do these sound good for now?

Do you mean chariot line? Does this include war wagon? War wagon is the main offender if you ask me and was the main reason I posted on the issue.
edit* just read in svn thread

Updates:
-Nerfed the Chariot line of units.

so that answers my question i guess, thanks!

 

[Sgtslick]

If the Pikemen get 75% vs mounted then the Heavy Pikemen will need to be changed too. So will all unique culture polearm units which include the Swiss Pikeman, Lansknechet, Silat and Pkak'ak.

Im just providing feedback, currently the only way to counter mounted is with your own mounted.

 

[ls612]

@All:

I have noticed, and been given feedback that supports this, that buildings, and especially units, are taking far too little time to build. I have now changed things so that Unit training times are now doubled and building construct times are increased by 40% or so. Please give me feedback on this change, but I won't be changing anything with it for a while, as tomorrow I'm leaving on vacation for a week.

 

[Sgtslick]

All:

I have noticed, and been given feedback that supports this, that buildings, and especially units, are taking far too little time to build. I have now changed things so that Unit training times are now doubled and building construct times are increased by 40% or so. Please give me feedback on this change, but I won't be changing anything with it for a while, as tomorrow I'm leaving on vacation for a week.

I've said this for months and have simply been editing the xml all this time, glad to see you agree.

 

[BlueGenie]

@ what speed is this? I'm not finding that I build too fast. Any longer and I'd be bored sitting around waiting for my early scouts to take 30+ turns to train, or when trying to get an army out in Classic Age having to wait 6+ turns for each Elephant Rider in my Mounted XP and Production city (when wanting 10) is forever, 60+ turns before I can even start moving them towards my target, and that would be without any support units from the same city (then again I could build supports in other cities too... still 60+ turns though).

I think it's a matter of how one plays as well as what area one manages to get oneself into. Production city indicates a bunch of hills and/or jungles with a production resource or two in vicinity. Without that, for instance flatland start and no Copper/Iron/Lead for Forge, I'd probably "have" to rely on Mace-men, Axemen, Spear-men, Javelineers as anything bigger would take too long to train.

The reason for units to train faster in comparison to game speed is that you have less time to react to an opponent coming your way, if it's 10 turns advance warning you have in a faster game you can easily have 10+ units ready by the time he arrives. @Eternity it's more like 3 units, 4 if you're lucky, 5 if you're lucky and in a Golden Age, and that is as it is now. Double the time and you'd see 1 unit, 2 if you're lucky, and 2 if your lucky and in a Golden Age.
(As a footnote someone in Slavery can manage it a little faster but not everyone plays with Slavery, a manner of preference).

Now imagine the AI coping with these increased training times. An AI who can't react to an invading force on it's way and thus spends a lot more time building units to have as a buffer.
It'll suffer greatly and lose out faster yet in the tech race and expansion race as twice as many turns will go for building units it might or might not need. More if a smart player picks of a few straggling AI units here and there, forcing the AI to rebuild them time and time again.

So, I'm sorry but I feel that doubling, even increasing, unit building times in Eternity Speed will take away some of the fun of playing the game due to waiting time and reduced AI capacity.

Mind you I'm not saying the same for buildings. *grin*

Cheers

 

[ls612]

@BG:

All four supported gamespeeds got this change. I don't think the AI has much of an issue with having too few military units, currently it is building far too many units early-game. Also, the AI was changed two days ago to be more careful about hostile border defense. In short, I don't think the AI will really be gimped by this change. Your feedback on gameplay with this is however appreciated. If you feel that eternity will be too slow, there is always the option to go down a notch to Snail.