Would patrician still be at all worthwhile if we did? If it really still needs nerfing might it be better to add a small negative rather than remove a distinctive positive?
C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
Would patrician still be at all worthwhile if we did? If it really still needs nerfing might it be better to add a small negative rather than remove a distinctive positive?
I say, leave it the way it is for now, if it needs more nerfing, that can be done later.
one patch
I have lots of new techs and new religion founding techs (Confucianism). Most of new techs are empty.
yes, it will. it gives an extra trade route.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
You need to have selected the Asimulation option when you start a game to keep cultures.
Yes we can but what is in there now is a half fix. I wanted slaves to settle as Settled Slaves (-1
+3
) and then when you change from the slavery civic they convert to Settled Citizens (+2, +2
, +1
) on a two for one basis. However we can't do that at the moment so I have not put the rest changes in.And they always will be. They are there just to give the religion to the player who first researches them. What we may need to do is figure out a way to disable those techs after the religion has been founded.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Hmm... I'm familiar with the coding region this may need to be inserted into. I can see how it could be done. Make a tag, bfirsteliminates, and when a civ is first to get that tech, it removes the tech from the list. This COULD, however, have some unexpected bug effects that I wouldn't necessarily be well equipped to fix. I'm not saying I'll do it right now but I could put it 'on the list' if it keeps being an issue.
An alternative could be to make some of the religion's specific buildings be accessed by the dead-end tech that grants the religion, making it maintain some usefulness provided a civ has that religion in its cities, or as a state religion, even if it didn't found the religion.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
What happens if 2 people are researching it and then the other gets there first? Will you still be researching it or will you be researching nothing?
Considering how it's set up now with each religion having to be specifically researched has anyone considered that everyone that finishes researching it could get a missionary for that religion, at least IF you have contact in some way with anyone that has established that religion though not necessarily with whomever has the Holy City?
Cheers
Cheers
I think that once the religion is founded, the AI needs to be made to understand that it should switch research subjects and ignore founded religion techs. Humans should learn to do this as well. 
That though is Koshling's territory.
That though is Koshling's territory.
Negotiating for peace with gold is a bit of an exploit currently I feel. I was gonna get crushed by my neighbour and I offered him 200 gold, he refused, 300, refused, 450 bingo.. I have nearly 30k in the bank peace for 40 turns for this measly amount of gold is broken I think. Should of been more like 5k+.
When I asked him what he wanted for peace he wanted one of my best cities (as if), $450 seems a bit of a drop compared to a size 17 decked out city.
While im at it I think generally speaking AI sells resources for too small an amount too. Like $170 for pig for 40+turns is too low considering im making more than double that a turn.
Not sure if I should make this a 'job' in the scheduler thingy, let me know.
peace for 40 turns for this measly amount of gold is broken I think. Should of been more like 5k+.When I asked him what he wanted for peace he wanted one of my best cities (as if), $450 seems a bit of a drop compared to a size 17 decked out city.
While im at it I think generally speaking AI sells resources for too small an amount too. Like $170 for pig for 40+turns is too low considering im making more than double that a turn.
Not sure if I should make this a 'job' in the scheduler thingy, let me know.
Negotiating for peace with gold is a bit of an exploit currently I feel. I was gonna get crushed by my neighbour and I offered him 200 gold, he refused, 300, refused, 450 bingo.. I have nearly 30k in the bank
When I asked him what he wanted for peace he wanted one of my best cities (as if), $450 seems a bit of a drop compared to a size 17 decked out city.
While im at it I think generally speaking AI sells resources for too small an amount too. Like $170 for pig for 40+turns is too low considering im making more than double that a turn.
Not sure if I should make this a 'job' in the scheduler thingy, let me know.
I agree with you on the gold for peace thing (save game would be useful), and yes, I'd appreciate a tracker netry do I don't forget.
I don't necessarily agree on the resource cost. It depends how many pig he has and various other factors - can't really judge that one in isolation.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I think that once the religion is founded, the AI needs to be made to understand that it should switch research subjects and ignore founded religion techs. Humans should learn to do this as well.
In my games this is true except when it comes to trade where they seem to consider a found religion tech worth about 300
. They also ask for it when requesting a tech. Sorry no save because that was when my computer CTDed with a graphics glitch that affected all my other windows graphics like firefox looking at these forums. I think there may be something wrong with my card besides it being out of old, very old.
Acularius
King
The reason I mentioned it is that to me, the 'citizen' or 'settled slave' under slavery doesn't really represent a 'specialist' such as a engineer or merchant that a 'patrician' would better represent.
That and 2200 turns in, and my slavery + patrician mix, the settled slaves are allowing me to keep afloat in terms of cash and keeping 100% research. At Monarch, GEM as Yangshao. Currently turning at least 80 gold a turn (Not exact figure, but I believe it is more than that) [On eternity]
If the settled citizens in the cities were NOT to produce an extra gold, I would actually have had to do some budget crunching due to the large standing army I have (out of 50 civs, I have the 3rd largest and it needs to be bigger) in order to fend out the Siamese (and to a lesser extent the Khmer), Tibetans, and Mongolians. [I've conquered the Yue tribe by now.]
I have 2 cities with 30 settled citizens, and my capital city will soon have 40. Then I plan to settle 10 in at least all my other existing cities before I reach currency... since I'm about to achieve Monarchy.
So that is effectively ~+100 gold generated by citizens alone. [Currently, since the world is effectively settled now, all expansion will involve conquest]
Essentially the hammers is all that the citizens should really be producing. I don't see why they need to produce extra gold. (The gold to me is a nice bonus, but I really want their hammers)
Acularius
King
Does that effect games currently in process?
Doing a quick check: [EDIT]
EDIT 2: After looking at my civic screen, the specialist type "Slave" gets the +1 -1 bonus, = 0.
However the specialist, citizen, does not get this malus is what I was referring to and since the unit 'slave' captured in victorious unit vs unit combat can settle as a 'free citizen' (which does not get the malus) and not a 'free slave', therefore I still get the money from settling the slave unit.
That is what I was referring to needing the nerf as well, or until the slave unit settles as a free slave until emancipation occurs (in which something happens that I don't know of.)
In my capital of Yangshao alone I have 39 'free citizens' (or settled slave unit) providing 39 hammers (which is really nice, and neccessary I find) and +39 gold (which kind of wrecks the need to balance my bankbook).
(Remember I have 2 other cities with 30 'free citizens' as well.)
All you need to do to verify this is look at the unit 'slave'. Special ability : "Can join city as Citizen"
Check the Civic, Patrician, which only targets the 'slave' specialist with the no gold malus. +1 Gold to specialist and since the Citizen is a specialist of sorts, it falls under the category of getting the bonus.
Therefore, I don't think the the crux of the problem has been fixed.
I have 5 'slave' specialist in my capital, they do not produce the extra gold... but 5 gold as compared to 39 gold from the 'free citizens' does not really compare. That's all I was referring to.
Currently under SVN version 3133.
On a positive note, I am not even in the TOP 8 for wealthiest civ in the world, 2351 turns in... I have almost 30k in the bank and aside from some unit upgrades and rushing the occassional workboat with cash...
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that a fair chunk of the AI have a larger cash reserve than I do.
Doing a quick check: [EDIT]
EDIT 2: After looking at my civic screen, the specialist type "Slave" gets the +1 -1 bonus, = 0.
However the specialist, citizen, does not get this malus is what I was referring to and since the unit 'slave' captured in victorious unit vs unit combat can settle as a 'free citizen' (which does not get the malus) and not a 'free slave', therefore I still get the money from settling the slave unit.
That is what I was referring to needing the nerf as well, or until the slave unit settles as a free slave until emancipation occurs (in which something happens that I don't know of.)
In my capital of Yangshao alone I have 39 'free citizens' (or settled slave unit) providing 39 hammers (which is really nice, and neccessary I find) and +39 gold (which kind of wrecks the need to balance my bankbook).
(Remember I have 2 other cities with 30 'free citizens' as well.)
All you need to do to verify this is look at the unit 'slave'. Special ability : "Can join city as Citizen"
Check the Civic, Patrician, which only targets the 'slave' specialist with the no gold malus. +1 Gold to specialist and since the Citizen is a specialist of sorts, it falls under the category of getting the bonus.
Therefore, I don't think the the crux of the problem has been fixed.
I have 5 'slave' specialist in my capital, they do not produce the extra gold... but 5 gold as compared to 39 gold from the 'free citizens' does not really compare. That's all I was referring to.
Currently under SVN version 3133.
On a positive note, I am not even in the TOP 8 for wealthiest civ in the world, 2351 turns in... I have almost 30k in the bank and aside from some unit upgrades and rushing the occassional workboat with cash...
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that a fair chunk of the AI have a larger cash reserve than I do.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I did not put the malus on the slave settled as a citizen because slaves get -1
+3 where as when settled they just get +1. Although in "my" working copy they get the same as slaves so I did give them the malus. I probably won't do much on these until we can get a civic change event to python so I can change settled slaves into something else.Acularius is right, settled citizens still get the +1 from Patrician. I just got to the point where I can take Patrician and found that it is assuredly so.
Whatever the fix was to remove that during Patrician seems to have not worked.
Giving a save for show where one can mouse over the citizens in any city and see that they get extra gold.
Cheers
EDIT:
Adding
<SpecialistCommercePercentChange>
<SpecialistType>SPECIALIST_CITIZEN</SpecialistType>
<SpecialistCommercePercents>
<iCommercePercent>-100</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
</SpecialistCommercePercents>
</SpecialistCommercePercentChange>
to Patrician didn't remove the extra from Settled Citizens. It's stated on mouse-over that they don't get that +1 but in the mouse-over on in the city screen it's still added +1 per Settled Citizen.
The only way I can see to fix it, and will try that later when I have time, I think might be to remove the +1 from all specialists and add it specifically for those that do/should get it.
Cheers
Edit: Back and did these changes:
Removed the +1 from all specialists.
Added +100%(of 1) to all specialists except Slave and Citizen.
It's a dirty fix, I know, but at least it works. My Patrician is now not OP (with 400+ slaves as settled citizens, yes, I know, bad, but it's roleplaying with Rome's Augustus so fits my scenario).
Cheers
from Patrician. I just got to the point where I can take Patrician and found that it is assuredly so.Whatever the fix was to remove that during Patrician seems to have not worked.
Giving a save for show where one can mouse over the citizens in any city and see that they get extra gold.
Cheers
EDIT:
Adding
<SpecialistCommercePercentChange>
<SpecialistType>SPECIALIST_CITIZEN</SpecialistType>
<SpecialistCommercePercents>
<iCommercePercent>-100</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
<iCommercePercent>0</iCommercePercent>
</SpecialistCommercePercents>
</SpecialistCommercePercentChange>
to Patrician didn't remove the extra
from Settled Citizens. It's stated on mouse-over that they don't get that +1 but in the mouse-over on in the city screen it's still added +1 per Settled Citizen.The only way I can see to fix it, and will try that later when I have time, I think might be to remove the +1
from all specialists and add it specifically for those that do/should get it.Cheers
Edit: Back and did these changes:
Removed the +1 from all specialists.
Spoiler :
Added +100%(of 1) to all specialists except Slave and Citizen.
Spoiler :
It's a dirty fix, I know, but at least it works. My Patrician is now not OP (with 400+ slaves as settled citizens, yes, I know, bad, but it's roleplaying with Rome's Augustus so fits my scenario).
Cheers
I am slightly confused right now as to the precise functioning of Patrician and/or the CvGameTextMgr.cpp (most likely both).
As you can see, the display of Patrician's effects has Slaves +-1, which makes absolutly no sense. It also says that Patrician gives ++20% to City Distance instability penalty (huh?). What on earth is going on?
As you can see, the display of Patrician's effects has Slaves +-1
, which makes absolutly no sense. It also says that Patrician gives ++20% to City Distance instability penalty (huh?). What on earth is going on?It is only a display issue. I'll fix it.I am slightly confused right now as to the precise functioning of Patrician and/or the CvGameTextMgr.cpp (most likely both).
As you can see, the display of Patrician's effects has Slaves +-1
The -1
to Slaves is there to counter the +1 for all specialists.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Acularius is right, settled citizens still get the +1
As I keep saying, I was asked to remove it from slaves not settled citizens.If you want I am willing to make slaves settle as settled slaves and give -1
+3 and not the gold with patrician. That would stop you settling so many in one city.
