C2C Balance Thread

[ls612]

I understand that C2C is about micro, and I really like that about it, but I have to agree with Joseph. The various factors of the game need to be balanced in importance. In vanilla civ and RoM:AND, healthiness was hardly a factor, while happiness was the main limiter on growth. In C2C, happiness has become meaningless. Healthiness has increased in importance, and acts as a soft limit on growth, which I like, and, would be well balanced if happiness was less plentiful. Crime has potential, but it is either easily dealt with by pouring an large amount of time into monitoring it, or gets out of control very quickly.

TBH, I have no idea what the optimal balance is, but I do trust that it will contiue to improve with time.

I would love to implement some sort of property watch in the Domestic Advisor, to allow you to have more control of management of Crime and Disease on a national scale, but that will have to wait until after V26 is released. I agree with the balance to a certain extent, but it's a constantly evolving process, and I feel it gets better with every release.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No. Hopefully by then you built a Barter Post or Trading Post. The ones that have the Storage Pit are for the building that come earlier than the Barter tech.

I don't build those buildings until much much later their downside is just too big to counter until I have a functioning city.

 

[ls612]

I don't build those buildings until much much later their downside is just too big to counter until I have a functioning city.

The Village Hall should really be another OR prereq for those buildings I think. (admin or commerce)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The Village Hall should really be another OR prereq for those buildings I think. (admin or commerce)

I suggested we get rid of population limitations and go for admin long time ago. However te admin buildings have huge downsides also, it s all that crime.

 

[JosEPh_II]

ThunderBrd wrote:The only really frustrating thing about crime, to me, is that you can get rid of all of it.

Say What!?!? How do you manage to do that!?? Are we playing the same Mod? I don't think so with that statement!

I wouldn't be posting and opposed to Crime if I could get rid of it. Or even control it.

<deleted>

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

One variation in our playstyle may account for that Joe. I value extra xp very highly and will:

a) use nearly ALL generals for xp.
b) build military, no matter what kind, from only one city (capital usually)
c) select my civics with a heavy preference for extra xp.
d) select only charismatic leaders that make the required xp far less for promotion.
e) pop out Law Enforcement units with at least the ability to max out on the law enforcement promo chain. Each one of them is highly capable of tackling a LOT of crime individually.

Then I build enough to make sure every city is running in the negative on crime. So since my already present playstyle supported anti-crime efforts dramatically, I have found crime a non-problem period. I build any building unconcerned about its crime contribution because I can conquer at least 25 +crime with just one unit. 5 crime is nothing imo.

Certainly doesn't bother me to have 4-6 crime fighting units in every city... it shows a lot of strength to enemy nations who may be considering going to war with you while you're building up and gives them a fair deterrent, so its really a win-win. The amount of gold necessary to support those units is negligible in comparison to the penalties for allowing crime to run rampant.

Now... been a few versions since I've been in the field playtesting I suppose so maybe I'm coming from an older version's balance on my assessment here.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

My take on the crime is that it happens, but... so what? Only the ones that happen at very high crime levels are a problem. Happiness flows like water unless you have City Limits on (and why would you have City Limits on, at least until which civics it applies to are changed?), so crimes that only penalize that don't matter. The %gold income from crime producing buildings is far higher than the flat costs of the crimes from 100-200.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So Basically you both are saying I should just totally ignore Crime and build anything I want.

Same now goes for Pollution? Disease?

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

So Basically you both are saying I should just totally ignore Crime and build anything I want.

Same now goes for Pollution? Disease?

JosEPh

So long as your economy is positive, yes. If it goes down, build something to counter crime, the long-term gains are greater than the short-term costs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have to ask this, Then why even bother with Crime in the game?

Apparently from y' all's perspective it just adds more Gold to your bottom line and isn't really an enhancement to the mod. Hydro's gonna be disappointed to hear this.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I have to ask this, Then why even bother with Crime in the game?

Apparently from y' all's perspective it just adds more Gold to your bottom line and isn't really an enhancement to the mod. Hydro's gonna be disappointed to hear this.

JosEPh

It is a different mechanism of -, at least in my opinion. We decided that it would be better to balance it with a unique feature than just with more - on buildings. That and it was a good use of the Property System, which is good for more than Crime. Also, it seems that to you Crime is either unimportant and therefore a bad thing, or dominant and therefore a bad thing. Is there a way for it (and properties in general) to be good?

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip> Also, it seems that to you Crime is either unimportant and therefore a bad thing, or dominant and therefore a bad thing. Is there a way for it (and properties in general) to be good?

1. It's you guys that say Crime is unimportant. What other inference can you take when ppl post that it's too easy?

2. It is Dominant if you try to use it with the intentions given to it by it's author. You should be able to balance and Control it. It's currently imho weighted to the Bad, not enough Good to balance.

3. Properties in general: How do I answer that??? That's like asking a 6 yr old how the magician pulled the rabbit out of his hat. Totally unfair question.

As for Crime "to be Good?" how can Crime ever be good? The real question is: What do you have to do to counteract Crimes Bad to have a well run Empire?

Currently playing by the "rules" and not using eXploits you can not effectively counter Crimes Bad. Give me a few more Anti-Crime possibilities and Ill learn to live with it. With this exception: It can not become overwhelming or tedious. Currently it fits both of those negatives.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

1. It's you guys that say Crime is unimportant. What other inference can you take when ppl post that it's too easy?

2. It is Dominant if you try to use it with the intentions given to it by it's author. You should be able to balance and Control it. It's currently imho weighted to the Bad, not enough Good to balance.

3. Properties in general: How do I answer that??? That's like asking a 6 yr old how the magician pulled the rabbit out of his hat. Totally unfair question.

As for Crime "to be Good?" how can Crime ever be good? The real question is: What do you have to do to counteract Crimes Bad to have a well run Empire?

Currently playing by the "rules" and not using eXploits you can not effectively counter Crimes Bad. Give me a few more Anti-Crime possibilities and Ill learn to live with it. With this exception: It can not become overwhelming or tedious. Currently it fits both of those negatives.

JosEPh

I don't see how building 2 TWs in each city is an exploit. Just doing that will give -20 crime, and if you can get enough free-xp buildings in the city (5 free xp should do it), you can get -30 crime from 2 TWs. I don't see how that would qualify as an exploit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

We are apparently not seeing the same thing then. I had 4 TWs in my bigger cities and 2TW in most of the rest and the Crime change was almost always in the +/turn. My TWs had the 1st Police promo -5/-2 plus Combat str 10% and 20%vs melee. And several had bamboo armor too. And I've never labeled using TWs an eXploit. Bad inference on your part there I'm afraid. I expect to eventually have to use some police unit to help control but not to the point that in the Classical Era I have to have 4 or more in each city above size 6. C'mon Man!

And using several TW is Not the "eXploit" I was referring too. See Tbrd's posts. That's is not an avg players mo for playing this game. So I label it an eXploit, others do not. But I try very hard and diligently to represent the avg Civ player. Like if I was introducing my wife or grandson to the game and teaching them the basics. That's something most players and Modders that post here are not, avg. <sigh>

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

We are apparently not seeing the same thing then. I had 4 TWs in my bigger cities and 2TW in most of the rest and the Crime change was almost always in the +/turn. My TWs had the 1st Police promo -5/-2 plus Combat str 10% and 20%vs melee. And several had bamboo armor too. And I've never labeled using TWs an eXploit. Bad inference on your part there I'm afraid. I expect to eventually have to use some police unit to help control but not to the point that in the Classical Era I have to have 4 or more in each city above size 6. C'mon Man!

And using several TW is Not the "eXploit" I was referring too. See Tbrd's posts. That's is not an avg players mo for playing this game. So I label it an eXploit, others do not. But I try very hard and diligently to represent the avg Civ player. Like if I was introducing my wife or grandson to the game and teaching them the basics. That's something most players and Modders that post here are not, avg. <sigh>

JosEPh

Hm, is the Crime Rate still +3 per pop point, or did that by chance get changed. If it did, then that should be set back to 3 per pop point, as during early Crime testing that is what we determined to be the best number for Crime.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Hydro put it back to 4 per pop.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Hydro put it back to 4 per pop.

JosEPh

Then that explains it. I disagree with that, as now that we have more crime buildings in the building chains population crime should be lower, so as to balance things out. I'll ask him about putting it back now that the TP for instance is required for many things.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I've always done everything I can to get as much xp into my troops as possible. That strategy stretches back to vanilla though is more effective here. It used to be that the ultimate reward for massive xp collecting was being able to build commando units out the gate. (took doing everything just right)

I don't call that an exploit, I call it better strategy. Whatever works better is not an exploit but a better way to play, a secret about the strategic structure of a game that you've discovered and used. An exploit is a cheat that wasn't intended.

One thing I'm looking to do though, throughout some of the modding I'm doing, is create some systems that penalize the supercity method and give benefits to those using other methods. But you're always going to have to focus on just a few cities for troop building or your troops will be weak and ineffective.

Even the AI has been taught this lesson recently!

Now, some of my largest cities might need up to 9 Law Enforcement units to keep crime out. Does this bother me? Only that the game allows it without other penalties emerging.

I like crime a lot but it needs a counterpenalty for completely eliminating it.

Also... if you're building Law Enforcement units, not putting at least what you can of their promos into making them more effective at law enforcement, and complaining that you have to build too many, that just sounds... I dunno... silly? I mean, even if you only get one or two promos out the gate you can still kick crime in the butt pretty easily if you aren't expecting your Law Enforcers to be your front line military defense in every city. That's really not what they're for anymore anyhow.

This is why I wanted the light weapon Mace line to be the melee city defender specialists, because I think with the change in the Town Watch line's role it leaves a vacancy and the Maces don't really fit into any real strategy as an in-betweener style unit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

But you're always going to have to focus on just a few cities for troop building or your troops will be weak and ineffective.

Even the AI has been taught this lesson recently!

Gawd I hope not! This is restrictions again. And I disagree with restricting how players play.

Also... if you're building Law Enforcement units, not putting at least what you can of their promos into making them more effective at law enforcement, and complaining that you have to build too many, that just sounds... I dunno... silly?

And why would you even infer I'd do something like that? I put what I have available as the TWs Promos, with Police as the 1st. I don't use TW as frontline city defense ever.

I get the feeling that several of you think I'm a total imbecile? Did you even read all the #634 post or just focused on the "See Tbrd's post" part?

This is so very frustrating and if I wasn't a n old Missouri Mule I'd have quit trying a loonnggg time ago. :/

JosEPh

 

[AIAndy]

I think TWs are too cheap compared to other forms of crime control so I'd say give them an increased production cost for each one you build.