C2C Balance Thread

[JosEPh_II]

Iirc at Sed Life, which I researched at 6350 BC on "Normal" speed for this new game. I had 6 or 7 cities founded (may have been 8). I have not met any other AI yet so No conquered cities in my Empire, Island Map, Huge, 7 AI (I'm the only one on my Island so I'm isolated for the Preh and Ancient Era in most of my games on this type map). Capital city was size 10 or 11. With next at size 6. (I was putting out a tribe every 4-6 turns from the Capital for the 1st 5 cities).

At the Founding of Judaism at 2820BC is when I entered Classical Era.

I currently have 13 cities and am in preparation to send settler to adjacent Island that my Canoes can now reach. Capital is at size 16 and I have 4 size 9 cities with the rest in decreasing size down to pop 2 for newest.

Remember I do not use City Limits, FB, or REV.

Edit:

The Palace should reduce your crime by -20 per turn. So you do have something fighting crime at the start of the game.

It's not enough.
JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

How much infrastructure do you put in your city before making "Tribes" (note this is pre-settler)? In my games tribes seem to take a very long time to build and its not until settlers that I can start expanding past say 3 or 4 cities. Note I play on Snail speed so everything is slower, but it should still be at a similar ratio.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As much as possible to build up a positive gold balance and the best/highest hammer count. And since I'm generally (but not always) isolated early game I only put 3-5 Mil units in a city. Once I make 1st contact then that number goes up accordingly. Keep in mind I avoid all Crime producing buildings that I can. Sometimes I "must" build one but only if I have a crime reducing building available.

Preh Era I never have to lower my Research below 100%. That's just how Preh plays. By Classical I my have to dip to 75-80%.

JosEPh

 

[Randomness]

75-80% science is a problem?

 

[Thunderbrd]

*cough* REV?

I'm suggesting such a system be woven into Rev... too many cops and added controls should add to revolutionary sentiment - or simply increased unhappiness.

On that note... I get a python error regarding revolutions right now whether I'm playing with it on or off... trying to play with it on doesn't seem to be working anyhow.

 

[JosEPh_II]

75-80% science is a problem?

Is it?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

How much infrastructure do you put in your city before making "Tribes" (note this is pre-settler)? In my games tribes seem to take a very long time to build and its not until settlers that I can start expanding past say 3 or 4 cities. Note I play on Snail speed so everything is slower, but it should still be at a similar ratio.

I can usually get about 6-8 cities with tribes, even with city limits on; max is 4 with Chiefdom but with the pets and menagerie I can get to 6. I also play snail

 

[Nimek]

Dont you thin that Roseta stone world wonder is overpowered. It makes all language civics avaiable so after i built it i apply this cicic and i get 10 000 bonus per turn (from 30k to 40k per turn). So civ that built it can become a tech leader easily.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Updates
- Tweaked Canoe Builder's Hut, Crafts Hut, Dance Hut, Dance Hall, Fisherman Hut, Fishmonger, Fletcher's Hut, Hat Shop, Healer's Hut, Mask Carver's Hut, Music Hut, Poison Crafter's Hut, Rope Weaver's Hut, Sail Weaver, Seamstress's Hut, Smokehouse, Storyteller's Hut, Tannery, Tattoo Hut and Woodcarver's Hut.

Most of these are now either broke or not showing up after you research the required tech.

Sailing tech gives shipwright or so it used to, now I can't build shipwright, Sails or Rope so I'm stuck with only Canoes when I should've had galleys long time ago.

War Dogs do not show up on Build list. Fletchers hut disappeared from build que. Now obsolete at Barracks perhaps? Leaves a terrible gap for promoting archer units.

This should probably all be in the Bugs thread. But Meh! :/

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

War Dogs do not show up on Build list. Fletchers hut disappeared from build que. Now obsolete at Barracks perhaps? Leaves a terrible gap for promoting archer units.

This should probably all be in the Bugs thread. But Meh! :/

Did you build the War Dog Trainer?

 

[ls612]

Did you build the War Dog Trainer?

Maybe there should be more extensive documentation of all of the changes, so that we can know if the things JosEPh is reporting are intended or bugs.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Maybe there should be more extensive documentation of all of the changes, so that we can know if the things JosEPh is reporting are intended or bugs.

Well my recent chnage are a mixture of this post and what I list on the SVN thread. I have been good at documenting which buildings I have tweaked. The War Dog Trainer as you can see is not one of them. Note I have more or less done all ot them except for the "Other" section at the bottom, things that are under DH's control (which I say which in the thread) and ones that are in the core (which I ask Praetyre to chnage).

In short if you have any problems you can look up if the building has been tweaked or not. I have not specifically listed the exact changes for all of them but they generally follow the same idea of having a Storage Pit, Barter Post, Trading Post or Shopping District ass a requirement. Other changes include specific resource requirements on some of the buildings such as Pinball Arcade now requires Glassware and Steel. However there are very few of these changes and generally have less requirements than what Praetyre proposed.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

In short if you have any problems you can look up if the building has been tweaked or not. I have not specifically listed the exact changes for all of them but they generally follow the same idea of having a Storage Pit, Barter Post, Trading Post or Shopping District ass a requirement. Other changes include specific resource requirements on some of the buildings such as Pinball Arcade now requires Glassware and Steel. However there are very few of these changes and generally have less requirements than what Praetyre proposed.

Do the ones that have storage pit as a requirement also have granary as a requirement? I stop building storage pits as I can build granaries then build just enough granaries so I can build the national wonder that gives free granaries.

Otherwise these changes are imposing an economic build style on you. Normally I don't bother building either of Barter Post or Trading Post until after I have my production up and running in my cities. Both cause too much crime so I don't build them until after I have built counter crime buildings to match.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Do the ones that have storage pit as a requirement also have granary as a requirement? I stop building storage pits as I can build granaries then build just enough granaries so I can build the national wonder that gives free granaries.

No. Hopefully by then you built a Barter Post or Trading Post. The ones that have the Storage Pit are for the building that come earlier than the Barter tech.

Otherwise these changes are imposing an economic build style on you. Normally I don't bother building either of Barter Post or Trading Post until after I have my production up and running in my cities. Both cause too much crime so I don't build them until after I have built counter crime buildings to match.

Well basically the "commercial" buildings are getting linked to those buildings.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Of course I built the War Dog Trainer. :/ (Sorry, but that was a dumb question) Right after I build Barracks (which is also too High of a +Crime giver). (What happened to the Fletchers Hut?)

No. Hopefully by then you built a Barter Post or Trading Post. The ones that have the Storage Pit are for the building that come earlier than the Barter tech.

I generally Do Not build Barter or Tradepost because the +5 Crime is Too High, especially in every city. And I sometime suspect if you build the 1st and then upgrade to the next the +5 Crime on each is ADDED together. Not replacing. So if I build the 1st at +5 Crime and then down the road build the 2nd for +5 Crime they seem to be additive. It's the only way I can see for the Ever Increasing Crime level (besides city pop growth).

Which brings up this question: So you've imposed a mandatory way to play now?

Well basically the "commercial" buildings are getting linked to those buildings.

What's next? Will we'll have Crime on Berry Bushes(which I no longer build either) and Storage pits???

All these +5 and +10 Crime giving Bldgs need ratcheted down (I personally will not build them until I absolutely Must). And the Crime/pop needs to go back down to 3.

I Have built every -Crime building available, Plus "When" I get TW, I end up placing 4 or more in each city(with best promos available) to keep the crime level from being a +3 or higher each turn in each city. And I'm spending +8 to +10 Gold/turn/city for TWs. Too Much.

@Koshling,
No wonder the AI builds TWs like crazy, they have too. It's not bad AI but ever increasing Crime pressure. And it's why the AI is now building Cottages over everything else, that is not a Resource or Mine tile. It has too! It must have a Big cash flow to pay for the TW's to keep Crime from destroying it's cities and crippling it's Empire.



JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@JosEPh:

I suspect with the inflation changes that you will actually have some spare cash for crime-fighting now. The whole thing is that you can't have progress without some downsides (crime), but overall the progress is supposed to outweigh the negatives if you handle it properly. The Trading Post for instance gives 5 Crime/turn (so ~40 to the total over the long run), while also giving +10%, and +10% Trade. You can then spend some of that new money to build a Guard (or TW), to counter that 5 Crime, and still have a or two left over in larger, well connected cities. This is what Hydro meant when he said you should 'build Crime buildings', is that if you use them right they can improve your gold situation in the long run.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ls612,
Even if it does free up some Gold to pay for the TWs it's still too much Crime, period.

And Crime's heavy hand is detracting from the enjoyment of playing the Mod. Especially since I must now go into the city screen every few turns to see the Crime effects. Then search the build list to see if I can have an affordable counter. All the while trying to eXpand and grow my Empire and hold off AI attackers.

Look I'm an avowed Micromanager, but this is starting to tax even my attention to detail. And from my viewpoint it's lopsided, badly so. Just like right now water and air pollution are lopsided. There is not enough to counter these negatives. And soon Disease may do the very same.

C2C has drastically changed how I play Civ. My former playstyle is now stymied and curtailed to the point that when I do go back and play RoM1.03 I have to try and remember how I had the most Fun playing it. C2C right now is starting to get tiresome to play. And is why I'm now playing on Normal game speed too. (shorten the games, less time involved per game)

I probably should just step away for awhile let you guys have your fun and stop nagging you about how and why things are done and being done. You're all probably pretty tired of me too to boot with my seemingly constant criticisms.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@ls612,
Even if it does free up some Gold to pay for the TWs it's still too much Crime, period.

And Crime's heavy hand is detracting from the enjoyment of playing the Mod. Especially since I must now go into the city screen every few turns to see the Crime effects. Then search the build list to see if I can have an affordable counter. All the while trying to eXpand and grow my Empire and hold off AI attackers.

Look I'm an avowed Micromanager, but this is starting to tax even my attention to detail. And from my viewpoint it's lopsided, badly so. Just like right now water and air pollution are lopsided. There is not enough to counter these negatives. And soon Disease may do the very same.

C2C has drastically changed how I play Civ. My former playstyle is now stymied and curtailed to the point that when I do go back and play RoM1.03 I have to try and remember how I had the most Fun playing it. C2C right now is starting to get tiresome to play. And is why I'm now playing on Normal game speed too. (shorten the games, less time involved per game)

I probably should just step away for awhile let you guys have your fun and stop nagging you about how and why things are done and being done. You're all probably pretty tired of me too to boot with my seemingly constant criticisms.

JosEPh

C2C is all about micro, and Crime is another thing that needs to be micromanaged to a certain extent. However, the Build Lists can help the micro somewhat, you could define a list that builds X buildings with +5 Crime and X/2 TWs, to balance out the crime, then set that list whenever you have a new city. That makes Crime a lot less of a pain to manage, meaning you can get back to the aspects of C2C that you like more.

 

[Randomness]

I understand that C2C is about micro, and I really like that about it, but I have to agree with Joseph. The various factors of the game need to be balanced in importance. In vanilla civ and RoM:AND, healthiness was hardly a factor, while happiness was the main limiter on growth. In C2C, happiness has become meaningless. Healthiness has increased in importance, and acts as a soft limit on growth, which I like, and, would be well balanced if happiness was less plentiful. Crime has potential, but it is either easily dealt with by pouring an large amount of time into monitoring it, or gets out of control very quickly.

TBH, I have no idea what the optimal balance is, but I do trust that it will contiue to improve with time.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The only really frustrating thing about crime, to me, is that you can get rid of all of it. This is unrealistic I think. But we have it like a tug of war right now and something needs to be done to make it that there becomes an acceptable level of unavoidable crime (otherwise you're putting too much into fighting it and you get worse penalties.)

I'm sure we'll figure that out eventually. But for the moment just a lot of Crime fighting units and resulting expense becomes the necessary evaluation. If you get more gold from building a +crime building than it costs to staff the necessary Crime Fighting units to counteract it, then its worth it to build, otherwise, its not. It's a little too black and white I think, and that's what Oppression could account for.

I think crime could be very useful in resolving the happiness excess issue too, but only if it becomes absolutely necessary that some crime be allowed without paying larger penalties for fighting it with such an iron fist.